The ZB47 was developed at Brno as a contender for Czech military submachine gun adoption in the late 1940s. The Czech Army had technically adopted a submachine gun prior to World War Two (the vz.38; video on that is coming a bit later) but production did not begin before the arrival of German troops. After the war, the Army was eager to add a submachine gun to its arsenal, and the vz.38 was no longer a practical option as it was chambered for the 9x17mm cartridge.
The ZB-47 is chambered for 9x19mm Parabellum, fired from an open bolt, uses a simple blowback action, and does not have a semiautomatic setting – just full auto. In its infantry configuration, it has a fixed wooden stock with a thumbhole design and a 72-round (!) magazine fitted almost horizontally under the stock and barrel. A unique feed system pushes cartridges vertically up out of the magazine feed lips into a pair of feed ramps that pitch the round 90 degrees forward and into the chamber. The system is closest to that of the FN P90, although the cartridge rotating element on the ZB is built into the gun, not the magazine. The paratrooper variant of the gun has a collapsing metal stock, which shorted the overall length and also restricts its capacity to a 30-round magazine when the stock is closed. Rate of fire was reportedly a blistering 1200 rpm.
One challenge of this very long straight magazine was the slight taper of the standard 9x19mm cartridge case. In 30-round magazines this is not really an issue, but by 72 rounds the taper adds up to enough to cause problems stacking cartridges. Brno attempted to solve this by making a truly cylindrical version of 9×19, but the Czech military was (rightly) not convinced of its benefits and rejected it.
In the 1947 field trials, 8 Czech units were given examples of the ZB47 and other competitors. Five of those units actually reported favorably on the ZB; it looks like a very awkward gun to handle but actually isn’t in practice. However, the Army deemed it to have too many drawbacks, including the magazine reliability, poor accuracy, and bring judged too fragile. One more set of trials would take place the next year and ultimately the CZ model 23 was adopted. In total, just 62 examples of the ZB-47 were produced.
Many thanks to the VHU – the Czech Military History Institute – for giving me access to these two fantastic prototypes to film for you. The Army Museum Žižkov is a part of the Institute, and they have a 3-story museum full of cool exhibits open to the public in Prague. If you have a chance to visit, it’s definitely worth the time! You can find all of their details (including their aviation and armor museums) here:
https://www.vhu.cz/en/english-summary/
This was a very enjoyable video, and one I’d had a lot of expectation for!
The part about the tapered 9x19mm cartridge doing better from a curved magazine a la MP5 vs. the straight-walled cartridge really highlighted some of the design conundrums.
At 2:09-2:28 mark: “A Czech[oslovakian] P-90 a 1/2 century earlier and with 50% more magazine capacity…” Priceless!
Mr. M’Collum followers might further compare notes with this underside-mounted magazine where the cartridges point up, and then make a porpoise-like jump from the feed lips to the feed ramp to the chamber at approximately 90 degrees with the Canadian 1948 XP-54 prototypes too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/cabx36/the_canadian_xp54_machine_carbine_with_trial/
Both of these prototypes–2 of the only 62 ever made!–date from before the communist coup d’etat and takeover of Czechoslovakia in 1949. A rate of fire of 1,200 rpm is mighty danged high, no? I’d note that the fixed stock version what with 72-rounds in the magazine is the capacity of the WWII-era Finnish Suomi and Soviet Shpagin PPSh41 guns, without the clumsy drum magazine. I half expected Ian to note not just the P-90 feed system, but also the crazy rotating chamber of the “Kraut space-magik” G-11 from Herren Heckler u. Koch, no? Certainly the Czecholsovakian Holek brothers had a much simpler means to effectuate the feed of the cartridges than on ze German Cold War-era wunderwaffe, no?
I was impressed by the marker plate in the magazine for the round count versus the much more typical witness holes or transluscent polymer magazines more common to our era. Interesting safety that locks the bolt in either the foreward/un-cocked or backward/cocked position, and a good safety feature on a sear-fired open bolt gun. The gun can’t be disassembled with the magazine in place, which was also interesting to me. A tube gun open bolt SMG is obviously way simpler to make and manufacture and probably maintain, but I could see why 5 in 8 guinea pigs in the Czechoslovakian army thought this was a neat gun. I particularly liked the collapsing-stock version with the ability to use full-size 72-rd. magazines when the stock was extended, but Ian did not how atrocious the stock would be from the firer’s position in terms of cheek weld and other handling considerations.
The Czechoslovaks seemed to have found a “sweet spot” in 9x19mm cartridge capacity with the slighty tapered 40rd. stick magazines for the samopal 23s and 25s that the communist government dumped in revolutionary Cuba after 1960. I recall Ian didn’t care much for that SMG, but cetainly the little 8-rd. stripper-clip magazine loader, the use of a portion of the telescoping bolt as a wrench to remove the barrel nut, and other touches are interesting.
With a different new-fangled cartridge, I’d wager this old ZB47 prototype could serve as a basis for the long-sought, never seriously mass-issued “PDW” that occupies so much online gun banter, but remains yet another will-o’-the-wisp since the PDW avant la lettre, the U.S. M-1 carbine.
“(…)curved magazine a la MP5(…)”
This weapon itself early used stick rather than banana magazine, see 1st image from top http://modernfirearms.net/en/submachine-guns/germany-submachine-guns/hk-mp5-eng/
“(…)tube gun open bolt SMG is obviously way simpler to make and manufacture and probably maintain(…)”
Without seeing MNO requirements it is impossible to say if this is what they said. As already pointed winning design used magazine of capacity 40, but it seems that they do not even required that, as another competitor https://imfdb.org/wiki/ZK_476 used capacity 20 magazine.
The Beretta MAB38 used straight 40 rounds magazines, that’s probably the limit for a reliable double-stack straight magazine using standard 9mm Para rounds.
As bizarre as it may be to contemplate: Does one wonder in looking at the firing grip of the ZB47 prototype if the Holek bros. were familiar with the 8x22mm Nambu Shisei-ni-gatu Kikan-Tanju experimental “Model 2” of imperial Japan?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_Model_2_submachine_gun
What a fertile mind… Hats off…
According to https://encyklopedie.brna.cz/home-mmb/?acc=profil_osobnosti&load=26617 František Holek was not responsible for development of many fire-arm designs, but also engage in making of Janeček-Wanderer (due to their logo known as JAWA)
Still plenty of JAWA motorbikes in Cuba… Although the police are riding Moto Guzzi. I’m wondering if parts are still available?
Is there a video on the Vz38? If not, are there any surviving examples you can review?
Ironically, the main drawback when you use tapered cartridges in a long straight mag is that the cartridges can start to nose downward – exactly what you need to make them do in a P90 or similar magazine.
From the written commentary **in this very post**:
“video on that is coming a bit later”
Ah, thanks and sorry, skimmed the written summary while doing too many things at once.
Oh yeah, “happens!” LOL!
How about an incarnation of this design in the straight walled .45 ACP? No need for separate ammunition supply channels. I calculate the 72 round 9mm length magazine would hold 60 .45 ACP rounds.
I understand there were issues with parts fragility. But can’t we do a better job these days in design and materials? If the P90 works for a wonky cartridge, why not use a time proven cartridge?
“(…)vz.38 was no longer a practical option as it was chambered for the 9x17mm cartridge”
Requirement for 9×19 mm sub-machine for MNO provoked Ceska Zbrojovka Strakonice to spawn one from said weapon. It was not taken by MNO itself, but found some export under name of CZ 247 https://modernfirearms.net/en/submachine-guns/czech-republic-submachine-guns/cz-247-eng/ it is mostly typical excluding funky magazine well, allowing to use to have horizontal or vertical magazine, depending on his liking.
“(…)unique feed system(…)”
Looks akin to Sosso patent from 1938, see 2nd image from top https://military-exotic.blogspot.com/2023/11/sosso-1938.html
“(…)Rate of fire was reportedly a blistering 1200 rpm.(…)”
I doubt in that source, user manual available at http://sa58kinggun.jansladky.cz/Podklady/Holek1.pdf gives output 550 rounds per minute (page 26).
“(…)attempted to solve this by making a truly cylindrical version of 9×19(…)”
Oh, so Brad Miller https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/15/9mm-fixed-straight-walled-9mm-automatic/ was not 1st in that regard. Nonetheless if they would persist this would result in accident-friendly environment with tapered 9×19 and parallel 9×19, which additionally would look similar to 9×17, which no so long time ago was default pistol cartridge of Czechoslovak forces.
“(…)like a very awkward gun to handle but actually isn’t in(…)”
Manual which I linked above tout this weapon as being superior t older sub-machine gun design, due to lesser effect of center-of-gravity moving during depleting magazine (see drawing at page 3) and being more dirt-proof due to smaller orifices (see drawing at page 24).
The illustration of how the bulky magazines unbalance things you mention is telling:
side-mounted allows for lower prone shooting, see MP.18,I and MP,28.II, SIG Bergmann copy [albeit Chinese copies had conventional bottom-feed magaznes], Spanish “Naranjero” copies and Lanchester, Steyr-Solothurn 100/ MP34, Erma EMP, Sten, Type 100, Sterling, –all on left side, but Bergmann MP35 and LMG-Pist 41/44 by Furrer on the right side.
Top-mounted drum magazine… The .22lr has such a pan magazine, but historically I can only think of a Degtarev prototype that used such a magazine like his onw DP LMG or the Lewis gun or similar.
Bottom-mounted drum magazine: Thompson, Suomi m/31, Soviet PPD and PPSh-41..
Top-mounted box magazines: Italian FIAT Mol. 1915 Vilar Perosa, OVP, Beretta prototypes, the Owen gun and Australian F-1. We might add the Pedersen device U.S. pistol cal. .30 Mod. 1918 and the prototype light rifle/ carbine submitted by John Garand of Springfield Arsenal with the top magazine canted 45-degrees to the right, and then
bottom-feeding magazines, which is the greatest preponderance of designs by far. The French seemed obsessed with having the bottom mounted magazine fold forward to render the weapon safe and improve handling while not actually shooting it, and there are a handful of others like that, such as from Hungary or Switzerland. We might consider the magazine in the actual pistol-grip like Czechoslovak samopal or Israeli/Belgian Uzi or Argentine FMK-3, Spanish Star-84 and similar a variation on the theme.
The Czechoslovakians had several prototypes of horizontally-mounted magazines, of which I think this ZB47 was the most elaborated, no? Versus the unsatisfactory H-47. Also the aforementioned CZ 247 that had receiver-mounted sights so the tube-receiver and magazine feed could be pivoted from the side for prone shooting, to bottom-feed to clear narrow hallways, passages, and so on. Of course, I think there were very few users of it, apart from Biafra/Nigerian Civil War, and Bolivia and perhaps a few others.
https://www.vhu.cz/samopal-cz-247/
“(…)all on left side, but Bergmann MP35 and LMG-Pist 41/44 by Furrer on the right side.(…)”
And also SIG development known as SIG 1930, see 2nd image from top
http://modernfirearms.net/en/submachine-guns/switzerland-submachine-guns/sig-1920-1930-eng/
Yes on the Sosso. Lots of ammo and a longer barrel.
Could the tapering issue with 9mm be solved with the magazine having a slot/rail for the rims to be moved along. Think stripper clip. The force of the follower would need to be applied to the rim not the case as a whole. Is there a mechanical gotcha I am missing?
https://modernfirearms.net/en/submachine-guns/czech-republic-submachine-guns/cz-247-eng/
Why do sub-machineguns have to have short barrels? The recoil mechanism take up the lion’s share of the length of the guns. But the sub-machine guns tend to use the same cartridges that work just fine in short pistols.
“Why do sub-machineguns have to have short barrels?(…)”
How do you define short w.r.t. 9×19 sub-machine gun?
Look at SMGs like the Sterling and Sten. Look at the various SMGs referenced in the comments. They all have barrels of 7 to 8 inches. Yet the whole SMG is three or four times that long. Seems like there could be designs that allow for longer barrels, thus greater accuracy at range. The lack of range is one downside for SMGs.
“(…)there could be designs that allow for longer barrels(…)”
Either use different principle operation than pure blow-back, historically delayed blow-back was quite popular, consider that Reising M55 http://modernfirearms.net/en/submachine-guns/u-s-a-submachine-guns/reising-m50-m55-eng/ has 263 mm long barrel with overall length (stock closed) 556 mm thus it is around 2 times longer than barrel itself, xor put moving parts above (or around) barrel as found in Walther MPL (or Madsen M1945, still quite long, but this is due to fixed wooden furniture, which is not critical for functioning)
More basically, SMGs had their beginnings with the trench warfare of the First World War. The very earliest ones, such as the Bergmann Muskete and the original Thompson “Annihilator”, were designed with barrels under 40cm (16″) in length to make them more easily maneuverable in a trench. Also harder for an enemy soldier around the next traverse to grab out of your hands. Yes, this is another reason they often had bayonet mounts, besides the obvious one in a close-quarters fight.
One reason the Pedersen Device was not issued was that being a conversion of the M1903 Springfield rifle, it would have been no easier to maneuver in the trenches than the rifle.
I’ve often wondered why they didn’t just de-cosmoline all those early M1903s with the “single heat-treatment” receivers, cut their barrels and forends back to the length and profile of the Springfield M1901 experimental carbine version (22″ barrel), or even cut them back to the length of the later M1 Carbine barrel (18″, or even down to 16″), and use those as the basis for the Pedersen conversion.
The single heat-treatment might not have been strong enough for the .30-06 ammunition, but it would certainly have been more than sufficient with the lower-pressured .30 Pedersen round. And they could have made it a single-function, dedicated CQB automatic carbine, without having to worry about anybody switching bolts and etc. in the dark.
They could even have made it selective-fire…
Yes. The “M1 Carbine” could have arrived in Flanders in 1917-18- two decades or so “ahead of schedule”.
Merry Christmas.
cheers
eon
“(…)“M1 Carbine” could have arrived in Flanders in 1917-18- two decades or so “ahead of schedule”.(…)”
Well, one of competitors to become LIGHT RIFLE was WOODHULL
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-rifle-program/woodhull-carbine/
which itself was altered Winchester Model 1905, I do not see reason which would prevent such change being applied earlier.
Rapid innovation/adoption and military planning just don’t go together.
“Czech designers come in pairs”
Actually, it was the Kouckys that were two, but Holeks were actually three. There was the third brother, also a gun designer in his own name, like Vaclav and Frantisek. Emmanuel Holek was tinkering with semi-auto rifles, notably his works were the ZH-29 (Zbrojovka, Holek Mod. 1929), he also had his fingers in perfecting the ZB-26, but later on went his own separate way with the ZH-29 and hunting rifles, including the combination guns (O/U, rifle/shotgun) of the ZH 300-series.
In case its not mentioned in the video: there were also Jan and Jaroslav Kratochvil, named for example as inventors in the British patent obtained on the vz52 roller locked recoil operated system.
Thank you Santa McCollum,
We have been waiting a long time for a video of this exotic submachinegun.
That is one of most interesting pieces that we have seen in quite awhile.
Thank you Ian!
I saw some discussion regarding tate of fire.
Only one way to be sure….
What a cool trip! more points than a porcupine A strange mix of manufacture, a unique feed system , a funny handgrip,VERTICAL feed “wheel”, firehose rate of fire, ultimate practical sights …sadly does not play Rock & Roll! Anyone notice the strange similarity to the toy “Buck Rogers “ray gun of @ 1940 ! (the first “Spaceman” for you modern cellphones) Thanks Ian ..Made my xmas! …Backwoods 85 yr New Zealander
What a cool trip! more points than a porcupine A strange mix of manufacture, a unique feed system , a funny handgrip,VERTICAL feed “wheel”, firehose rate of fire, ultimate practical sights …sadly does not play Rock & Roll! Anyone notice the strange similarity to the toy “Buck Rogers “ray gun of @ 1940 ! (the first “Spaceman” for you modern cellphones) Thanks Ian ..Made my xmas! …Backwoods 85 yr New Zealander
An early Christmas present – what an excellent video! Thank you Mr McCollum
Fascinating. I do wonder why they didn’t try the same basic idea with the magazine on the top…
No chance you got to shoot one?
Certainly Czechoslovakian arms inventors and technicians had pioneered the ZB26 LMG with a top-feeding magazine… Again, per the original vague design criteria, a ponderous long magazine hanging off the side, bottom, or top, presented balance issues… A 72-rd. 9x19mm magazine would be rather a lot, although John C. Garand did have a 45-degree to the right top feed magazine on the Springfield Armory prototype entrant for the M1 carbine that could be variously any multiple of 5 rounds up to 50:
https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp-sales/m1-carbine/129511-military-article-on-m1-carbine?t=137507
At some point, our intrepid Ian M’Collum just might drop the prototype Czechoslovak ZB 530 on us, which was a top-feeding magazine select-fire rifle design in 7.62x45mm…
Certainly Australia fielded a top-mounted magazine in a 9mm SMG in first, the Owen, and later the F1.
“(…)entrant for the M1 carbine that could be variously any multiple of 5 rounds up to 50:(…)”
Please keep in mind .30 Carbine is skinny in comparison to Patrone 08, therefore magazine of same capacity for former will be generally shorter than for later.
A lot of ingenuity to put into a pistol caliber weapon.
The Czechs are generally a very practical lot. Therefore I wonder how exactly they envisaged _carrying_ of these magazines?