This particular rifle is a prototype of the reproduction VG1-5 (or more correctly called the Gustloff MP-507) rifles that are available for sale from Chuck at GunLab.net. I will take some slow motion footage of a production example as well, once I have it in hand.
For more details on the gun, check out my full video on it here:
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Looks really cool! I am broke at the moment but would consider getting one in the future, M16s just are not cheap! Price I think it a bit high but I would consider it.
What is the trigger group used? How close to the original are these? We need a good video to compare! For $4k I would hope it would be as spot on as possible. I was following it over on another website but the posts died away and I lost track of the project until now.
The trigger is completely unrelated to the original trigger mechanism (which used a whole bunch of complex cast parts, permanently riveted together). The new trigger mechanism was designed specifically for these rifles, and is basically the same in concept as an M1 or AK trigger.
that operating handle on the rifle in the slow motion video looks different, is it?
Yes, it is. Like I said, the rifle in the slow motion video is a prototype.
You going to take one of these to a 2 gun match? It might be fun to see how it compares to something like an M1 or a G43.
Hats off to Chuck and crew! That looks like it works very well. Pretty huge accomplishment to go from scratch and stamp it all out and make it work. Cool!
Ian, it would be nice if you could record in slow motion a prototype with a non-drilled barrel. Willing to see if there is any actual difference between gas delayed and plain blowback VG1-5
That would be interesting! Of course if there is a big difference, you might not want to be sitting anywhere real close when you pull the trigger! I would be very interesting.
There’s a part of me that’s always been enamored with the gas delayed blowback as a concept, and seeing you shooting a successful (in the functional sense) prototype in slow motion makes me wonder a couple things. In a similar vein to dansquad, I wonder how well it would cycle if the slide assembly were substantially lighter (say aluminum?), or if it really does require all that mass and is basically just a blowback. If a lighter slide can still function (possibly with moved gas ports), that might bode well for the system being carried over to other calibers.
I also wonder when a “tactical” one, ala the tactical FG42 will drop into your lap for a 2gun match. If one does, I want one.
Heh…I don’t anticipate there ever being a tactical VG1-5. Once the production run if complete, Chuck will be moving on to a new and different project.
I am a bit surprise by the $4.000 price, but if it is a way to make a pre-serie and finance a further bigger production at good price, why not
I don’t expect there will be any further production once this batch is finished.
How about making one in 7.62x39mm that accepts AK magazines? Granted, it wouldn’t be as authentic, but on the other hand replicas of 19the century pistol caliber lever actions seem to be more popular in “non-authentic” calibers such as .45 LC and even .38 Spl and .357 Magnum, probably because those cartridges are more available and less expensive as factory loads than .44-40 WCF. (And also because many people already own revolvers in those calibers.)
It’s not my decision to make, since I’ not the person making these – but I can tell you that they are only going to be made in 8×33. The problem with adapting it to 7.62×39 is that an entirely new receiver would be needed, and to what end? These guns are in no way better than an AK or SKS from a practical perspective. Chuck doesn’t wish to get into serious mass production of anything, and the cost would not be all that much less than the 8mm version. Even if it could be halved, how many people would really buy a VG1-5 in 7.62×39 for $2000? It would be a pretty pointless gun, IMO, without the utility of a $300 SKS or the historical interest of the original.
Well, it was just a crazy idea. You are probably right that the interest would not be sufficient to make it commercially viable.
In the USSR after WW2 there were rifles made(TBKs?) and tested in 7.62×39 that used this principal. The designer abandoned principal and went with lever delay blow back. An interesting way of making a gun and good for what was in need during WW2, but limited.
Chuck’s price is about what figured it would be and don’t dare spend that amount now. Bad timing for me, but great for some others and it’s very interesting what he did to do it.
Just to be clear the gas delay blow that the USSR copied and worked with after WW2 was the same as the MP-507. The gas port was back by the chamber. The 7.62×39 redesign TKB-454 the USSR did look very similar to the German(Kurt Horn)design.
The German design and write up in Russian:
http://www.kalashnikov.ru/upload/medialibrary/44a/020_026.pdf
The TKB-454:
http://tonnel-ufo.ru/eanglish/weapon/korobov-tkb-454.php
“rifles made(TBKs?) and tested in 7.62×39 that used this principal.”
TKB not TBK, the ТКБ stands for Тульское Конструкторское Бюро – Tula Construction Bureau. You are probably thinking about Korobov (Г. А. Коробов) and ТКБ-517 lever-delayed rifle (link: http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-517-e.html ) and their predecessor ТКБ-454 which initially work on blow-back principle but later was redesigned to delayed blow-back principle.
Might sell, sort of a Highpoint. You could perhaps use the same alloy for the slides bulk… 7.62x39mm might be more powerful, try and improve the gas delay maybe put the ports nearer the chamber like that Hk P7 pistol is it – Purpose, cheap Ak mag using, cheap self loader.
It was interesting to see how many times the gun closed and reopened a bit when it was fired.
Yup – that’s why H&K designs have that bolt locking lever and spring.
Thanks for the vid !
I too would like to see (or read about) the results of a testing with blocked gas holes, if the gas delay is really a THEORY like you said (and are probably right)
Is there a reason why on prototype there are 2 rows on holes? (on original there are 4 holes but on one spot, not 2, like seen here on video).
Also, slide mass of 6 pounds, is it the same as original vg 1-5, or heavier?
“Chuck will be moving on to a new and different project”
New project?
How about that one?
http://popgun.ru/files/g/36/orig/695905.jpg
http://lib.rus.ec/i/77/452077/pic_7.jpg
Just kiddin 😉
How is it supposed to function? It looks intriguing 🙂
Maybe gas from a port just forward of the cases mouth is supposed to turn the plug thing via… It’s inside being “screw” shaped, a spiral like. Then the lug on the plug rotates freeing the bolt thing from the barrel piece, the spring thing on the plug assists this rotating action, as it’s compressed by the bolt – when fully forward.
This is Grossfuss sturmgewehr, look it up.
Basicly, much better performance in using the gas delayed blowback, but the factory got overrun by russians before they could start the serial production.
Prototype(s?) are now in their posession.
It doesn’t rotate. Pressure on the piston counteracts bolt movement speed until the pressure force on the bolt overcomes the piston’s force. Then the piston drops down and allows free movement of the bolt rearward. The spring holds the piston down until the bolt returns the piston to it’s original position.
Interesting stuff 🙂
When you fire gas pressure holds the wee piston plug thing into it’s recess within the bolt, when the bullet leaves the barrel said plug thing is only under spring pressure.
Is that it, sort of Hk P7 but instead of a “hydraulic” arrangement – In that the gas can’t be compressed, this uses said gas to sit behind a steel lug so it can’t be depressed because of it. And as it’s sat inside the bolt, the bolt can’t move accordingly until it is removed.
Clever… Probably the product of desperation, last ditch thinking etc… But it’s clever, I see no apparent reason as to why that wouldn’t work… There’s various variables, but still…
That’s definitely the one to make 12L14, I reckon it’s the conclusion of the Vg1-5 “thought” patten. It requires less metal, it’s just better. Really it’s a vg-6 in essence…
It wasn’t designed and made for the Volkssturm. It was designed and built for the Herr. So a VG designation would be incorrect.
For those interested, but have looked no farther into it, the German made one that the USSR tested fired about 1900 rounds without fail. For whatever reasons, the 7.62×39 redesign the USSR made didn’t work that well.
I’m also called Martin, Martin… The technicalities… The principle works.
I wonder if the gas is bleeding back in the chamber due to the chamber flutes? (of course if they are included on this prototype rifle)
Flutes or not, the gas can’t bleed back into the chamber until the pressure has dropped. The pressure in flutes would be the same(equal to) as in the rest the connected pressure areas.
That is the basic principal of pneumatics/hydraulics. Pressure will always be equal in the whole system.
You can find nice article here:
http://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?f=149&t=16544
ps. I barely read russian, so can’t help with a translation – sorry…
That is the same article in PDF format that I provided a link to a few posts ago. Google translate will do a reasonable job of translating the PDF one, but won’t translate the jpg version.
You can also save the PDF one for future reference.
Ian
It might be interesting to carry out the slow motion film using wartime or East German ammo which is higher pressure than current brass cased. However the firearm would have to be cleaned with boiling water.
It would be very interesting – I am planning to do just that with one of the production guns. I’d like to do all 4 available ammo types – FNM, Prvi, German WWII, and post-war East German.