The day has come to do some shooting with an RSC-1918 – and an RSC-1917 as well! The 1917 was the first selfloading rifle to see substantial combat use, with just over 85,000 manufactured in 1917 and 1918 and used on the frontlines by French troops. The 1918 pattern is an improvement of the design, with a shorter barrel, improved gas system, and using the standard Berthier 5-round charger clip.
In practical terms, the 1917 is the more comfortable gun to shoot, because of its greater size and weight. The 1918 is substantially handier, but requires the shooter to keep a solid grip on it – as would any carbine this size firing a rifle round with a 200-grain projectile! We did find during the course of this range session that the clips were originally meant to be disposable for a reason – they become deformed to the point of causing malfunctions after just a few uses. So owners of original RSC clips, be aware!
Special thanks to Silverdale Gun Club in Ontario for use of their range, and to Paul for letting me use his rifles. Check him out on Instagram!
Handy rifle, especially the later model. Bar some small malfunctions, this looks like sound system. Slow-mo is also quite revealing. In my general observation, and this is not just about these rifles, is about often extremely short bolt over-travel (past base of cartridge place in top position in magazine); not inductive to reliability.
Great show and thanks to all. Also the club looks impressive, but too far for me.
Approximately what do the 2 kinds of clips go for in 2017 ?
The M16 Berthier clips used to be just a few bucks, but seem to have jumped to $25 or more recently. The RSC-1917 clips are much more, and very hard to find regardless of price. I paid $250 for the one original example I have.
Weird that they hadn’t figured out that the 1917 would be to long by then, and, like somebody else here commented earlier, they should have used an improved Chauchat magazine.
Detachable magazines would have been better, but what about weight? How many fully loaded magazines could one carry (assuming ten rounds each) as opposed to fully loaded disposable clips? Which set carries more ammunition per kilogram of mass? I wonder why nobody asked those questions yet…
Chauchat’s magazine was also source of some reliability problems. Heavy taper of 8×50 R Lebel mean that banana magazine for it would have heavy curve (Chauchat magazine despite having only 20 capacity, has 180°, compare it to say AKM, which with 30 capacity has less than 90° xor 100 capacity with 180°).
For comparison in Great Britain in similar time Rifle. .303 inch, Pattern 1918 was adopted: http://modernfirearms.net/rifle/autoloading-rifles/brit/self-loading-rifle-farquhar-hill-e.html
it featured 19-round drum magazine, although ·303 when also rimmed, is much more sanely shape from point-of-view of banana magazines for full-auto weapons (cf. Vickers-Berthier 30-round banana magazine)
I never really understood historical significance of ammunition strips/clips before last couple of episodes on FW namely those related to Lebel and following rifles. During my service ammo was packed by 10rd clips. Although vz.58 had provision to fill magazine from them while inserted in gun, we did not really use them, neither were trained to do so.
I thought of it as something old fashioned and distant in past. Now I can see a bit more meaning in it. For one you realize that ammo should be used sparingly. When you think about it the “fire-power” is not how many shots you fire, but how many you hit with.
“vz.58 had provision to fill magazine from them”
Here: http://smolbattle.ru/threads/Зарядные-машинки-и-ускорители-заряжания.32101/
you can see several photos of different historical loading gadgets, both for loading cartridge to belt and for loading magazines.
Loading AK-74 magazine (manual):
http://voenservice.ru/boevaya_podgotovka/ognevaya_podgotovka/snaryajenie-magazina-patronami-i-zaryajanie-orujiya-vyipolnenie-normativa-snaryajenie-magazina-lentyi-patronami/
1st drawing: one-by-one
2nd drawing: with usage of adapter and stripper
Ratings of loading (one-by-one), 30-round magazine:
No more than 33 seconds needed: excellent
No more than 38 seconds needed: good
No more than 43 seconds needed: satisfactory
Oh I just love those things, mechanically speaking; they are real gems.
Regarding unused vz.58 capacity to feed live ammo thru action – I believe it was primarily because of safety concerns (servicemen were typically not professionals). In war time situation it would be different.
This question is why the M1 Garand used clips.
That was me I believe. Now I do not think it was so smart considering that the Chauchat mag was single stack type. It would be a monster.
Hi Ian,
Thanks for the super slow motion of the rifles feeding. I was amazed at how loose the top cartridge was. I am surprised that they fed at all!
Keep up the geed work. I look forward to Forgotten Weapons everyday.
Common problem with all Mannlicher style en bloc clips is that they have feed lips. This was probably not a problem with most of them originally, but it makes a meaningful modern evaluation of their reliability essentially impossible, unless good quality repros are available. So one must take with a huge pile of salt any modern claims about the reliability of the Mannlicher and Berthier rifles.
Do you think clips were recycled, in combat situations of WWI? I’d have so many questions for my grandpa now… 🙂
In Austria-Hungary all rifle ammunition was delivered pre-loaded in clips, so I doubt there was significant reusing of clips on the front. In France loose rounds were issued for Lebel rifles and for reloading Chauchat magazines, so availability of loose rounds would have been better. So, at least in theory there could have been some recycling, but unfortunately I don’t know if it was common in practice, either. In any case it seems unlikely that the same clip or clips would have been reused several times.
An excellent knowledge; thank you.
It’s official Ian. You are having too much fun. Now we have to kill you.
It looks to me he used “Ontarian hospitality” (starting with QBZ97) to fullest. Good for him… and in final extent for us.
Were the clips loaded in any set order to prevent a rim over rim jam?
Ian
I am shocked, shocked I tell you. How could possibly think it was acceptable to post such blatant, gratuitous, un-censored porn. I mean really, there are children on the internet Ian! It’s not okay to go throwing your rifles up on screen just because they are French, contrary to popular belief, not everyone loves the French.
If you don’t love the French, turn off your tv and go to the library.
I think Joshua was employing satire. At least I hope it was satire!
that would be the one
As my son who is franco canadian as opposed to quebecois says when he cant get along with someone over here but dad he is sooo french