During World War One, the Russian Government purchased some 51,000 Colt 1911 pistols. These were standard commercial production guns, chambered for .45 ACP, and were shipped in 1916 and 1917, with JP Morgan acting as purchasing agent. They have serial numbers between about C21,000 and C89,000. The only distinctive markings are on guns above about C50,000, which were marked “Engl. Order” in Cyrillic.
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While we are on the subject of 1911’s in service outside the USA I wonder if anyone here has access to some history of Austrian Army use of 1911’s in perhaps the 1950s?
These are marked on the left side of frame forward of takedown/slide release: an eagle stamp followed by “BH”, probably Austrian army: Bundesheer
I’m looking for any historical info about the program(s) under which these went to the Austrian army, and how and when they went out of service to the civilian market.
You can see an example of this marking and some comments at: https://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=253386
According to the book “Die Bewaffnung des österreichischen Bundesheeres 1918-1990” by Wolf M. Urrisk, the 1680 pistols, called 11.43 mm P.11 in Austria, came from the U.S. Military Assistance Program (MAP) and as such were given back to the U.S. Your assumption that BH stands for Bundesheer is correct.
Was it usual for russian arms purchased from “abroad” to NOT have manufacturers names & markings in most or all cases. Seems the communist claim to “inventing” the machine gun was based on the purchase of a few Gatlings which were then marked “GORLOFF” (or something similar) who was the “purchasing agent” for the russian Govt. . The history of this weird marking “system” could be a basis for an article!.. If you ever get down to NZ (New Zealand) we have a few bits of interesting stuff down here, Worlds best complete “Dissappearing Gun” Naval artillery piece it pops UP fires & drops back down! may be another in Canada @ 1880 date. REALLY appreciate your presentations!
“(…)“GORLOFF” (or something similar) who was the “purchasing agent” for the russian Govt.(…)”
This is not so simple.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0_%D0%93%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%B0
Russians were first in Europe to buy Gatling guns indirectly from Colt factory in U.S.A.. А. П. Горлов and К. И. Гуниус were send officially to do quality control, however true task was to investigate method of productions (industrial espionage). Suspecting that offered was laid for Russian: buy at least 100 U.S. made guns and you will get production license.
Various weapons were developed from original Gatling design in Russia. Барановский developed small-caliber (by standards of its day) version, which used 4,2-line cartridge from Berdan rifle able to provide high (by standards of its day) Rate-of-Fire equal to 600 rounds per minute. Загоскин developed light-weight (by standards of its day) version with 8 barrels and using 15,24х40R cartridge. Чегодаев developed 19 barreled version which caliber was deemed “artillery” one, suggesting it was not lesser than 25,4 mm – these weapons were adopted during Great War for anti-aircraft purposes.
It should be noted that Gatling gun usage in field units of Imperial Russia was relatively short, as already in 1876 their use was abandoned, much long-lived was fortress usage.
I don’t want to offend anyone…
But the Kiwis, the inventors of artillery, are something new.
Even cooler than the Russian inventors of the steam engine or radio. LOLOLOL
By the way.
“Disappearing” Gatling.
https://static1-repo.aif.ru/1/79/960247/76b21aa4af441608b9d6d6a94ef619b7.jpg
https://aif-s3.aif.ru/images/012/898/517d270405e85488c2ff64255ea27cb4.jpg
“(…)“Disappearing” Gatling.(…)”
Bigger photo of similar (same?) weapon:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mitrailleuse_Gatling_APX1895_Paris_FRA_001.jpg?uselang=ru
Judging by the interior, this is it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearing_gun#History
There were two purchasing agents who handled 1911’s for Russian government. First was JP Morgan, and second National City Bank. All AZ marked 1911’s came through England, and all unmarked came directly from Colt factory through National City Bank of Petrograd.
Will this pass as an add-on?
https://popgun.ru/files/g/36/orig/4530894.jpg
https://popgun.ru/files/g/36/orig/4533418.jpg
https://popgun.ru/files/g/36/orig/4535512.jpg
https://popgun.ru/files/g/36/orig/3695848.jpg
This all means that among such pistols there are even fakes.
https://popgun.ru/files/g/36/thumbs/113004.jpg
Possibly two of these were used in the killing of the Tsar, his family, and servants. One, C7195, is still in Russia but the other one, who knows? It’s not impossible that one day one will be matched to Ipatiev house bullets.
I have seen several movies that had that murder scene in them. I always watch the guns used in movies to see if I can spot any errors. The shooters were shown using Nagants. Had the killers been shown using 1911s I would have fallen off my couch laughing.
And yet, 1911 bullets (and .32 acp and .44 S&W) bullets were recovered.
I was not aware of the forensic evidence until now. Knowing that there were 1911’s in circulation in Russia at the time makes a lot of difference. I wonder how easy it was to get .45 ammo in Siberia. You could not just go to the nearest Basski Proski store and pick up a couple of boxes.
Allegedly, the Colt 1903 # 71905 was used.
What was really there …
There is no one to ask.
https://www.kalashnikov.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/29.-Puli-iz-komnaty-ubijstvaweb_web.jpg
Ammo is not a problem.
Where the Colts themselves were, there were cartridges for them.
Although the number itself refers to the Colt edition of 1914, this number should be on the 1911 model but not the 1903…
At the same time, in another source, Colt .45 C78517 is mentioned.
Which makes the list for 1918.
That is, it cannot be a “Russian order” Colt, but it can only refer to the weapons of the American expeditionary force.
Whatever it was, knowing the arbitrary attitude of Russian “historians” to facts, their interpretation and use, we will never know the truth …
Number C78517 still falls into the Russian order.
The House of Morgan….It’s everywhere! It’s everywhere! Makes you half believe those conspiracy legends about Wall Street and the Gnomes of Zurich
Does anyone know the amount of the “Russian contract” of Colt?
I was watching the new John La Carrè movie Our Kind of Traitor that featured an ornate 1911. My first thought was that it was a gaffe by the production designer/props master, since the Colt was an American made firearm. So I went to the Google machine to investigate and this article came up. Now I’m just a little bit more informed and impressed at the level of detail the film had.