“Manufrance” was the common abbreviated name for Manufacture d’Armes et Cycles de Saint Etienne, a massive mail-order catalog company in France for many decades. Like Sears Roebuck in the United States, one could get pretty much anything from the Manufrance, including firearms. In the years leading up to World War One, the catalog included more and more extravagant revolvers, culminating in the 20-shot, 6.35mm “Le Redoubtable” (introduced in either 1910 or 1911) and the similarly-sized 16-shot “Le Terrible” in 7.65mm. Both used a cylinder with two staggered rows of chambers and two superposed barrels to fit that many cartridges into a sort of practical cylinder.
After 1914, the Manufrance catalog ceased publication for the duration of World War One, and the Redoubtable was no available when it returned in 1920. Before the war, this was definitely a luxury sort of item, bringing a price equal to that of a top-end self-loading pistol like a Luger, C96 Mauser, or 1903 Colt. A standard Army pattern Mle 1892 was less than half as much, and a pocket cyclists’ Velodog sort of revolver was about a third the cost of Le Redoutable.
I didn’t watch the whole video. Are you going to range test it or use it in a competition?
I didn’t hear him say if it was a rimfire, or a centerfire.
.25 ACP is centerfire as well as .32 ACP
Ian said it most likely wasn’t a .25ACP.
6.35mm Browning is the European accepted name for .25 ACP
I am not aware of a specific revolver cartridge (such as pinfire or rimfire) with the same designation.
I am wondering if it is a proprietary cartridge. He also didn’t say (or I didn’t hear) if it was rimfire or centerfire. Or if it was a rimmed cartridge. .25ACP (I think) is a semi-rimmed cartridge. I would love to make a chamber cast.
“I am wondering if it is a proprietary cartridge. ”
According to http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20h%20d%20h%20gb.htm
nown under the names of “Machine-gun HDH”, “Terrible” or ” Redoutable ” (Manufacture d’Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne) or “Wild West” (in India and Asia), manufactured in the calibres 6,5 vélodog, 6,35 (20 shots) and 7,65 or 32 S&W (16 shots) by firm HDH (patent of 1910) until the beginning of the years 1930 (the catalogue from where is extracted annexed publicity is gone back to 1928).
I am not sure if 3rd and 4th were distinct or it was one which could be loaded with 7,65 [mm Browning] and 32 S&W.
Maybe 6mm velo-dog which was centrefire.
Again, I wish there was a chamber casting. 6mm Velodog is a good possibility. Time frame is right.
Yep, 6mm velodog is centerfire.
Fascinating ! I’ve owned several Belgian 12-shot pinfires bue have never seen one like this–Built like a Swiss watch !
“(…)several Belgian 12-shot pinfires(…)”
How does these compare to Chaineux https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Chaineux_revolver
?
“(…)“Le Redoubtable”(…)“Le Terrible”(…)”
Wait I did heard these names earlier…
These are names of 19th century French armoured ships
REDOUTABLE (completed 1878) http://navypedia.org/ships/france/fr_bb_redoutable.htm
TERRIBLE (completed 1887) http://navypedia.org/ships/france/fr_bb_terrible.htm
But said revolvers were introduced in either 1910 or 1911
Were by that time said ships still vaunted by French press?
I doubt it as new ships and new designs were being produced at a prodigious rate at this time.
The names were “re-used” by the French Navy. For instance, Redoubtable was the name ship of their first class of SSBNs in the early 1970s;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_submarine_Redoutable_(S611)
Foudroyant was another such recurring name. Even though the original, launched in 1750, was captured by the British Royal Navy at the Battle of Cartagena in 1758 and taken into their service, still retaining her original name. She was finally discharged and broken up in 1787.
To add insult to injury, the RN built and launched their own HMS Foudroyant in 1798. She was Nelson’s flagship from 1799 to 1801.
cheers
eon
I have a short list of British warship captured by the French . HMS Juno for example , an armed merchantman
@Eon Nobody care of HMS Foudroyant !! This is out of context .
An actual specimen of the 20 shot H.D.H. (Henrion, Dassy, Heuschen of Liege) revolver was described by Autor Wolfgang Weigel in 1968. According to him, it fired the 5.75 mm Velodog cartridge (which is its CIP name).
According to the special edition ‘Les armes de nos grand-pères’ of ‘Gazette des armes’ magazine (weapons of our grandfathers), ‘Le Redoutable’ was indeed of HDH manufacture and chambered in 6.35 aka .25ACP. Its 16 shot brother in 7.65 aka .32ACP was called ‘Le Terrible’.
The velodog cartrige was still being loaded in Italy up to a few years ago and a french company hc-collection.com has reloadable cases and bullets
The semi-rimmed .25 acp shows up in quite a few revolvers of that time frame. Including a number of Belgian proofed ones. A 5 shot folding trigger gun is just as small as anyone would expect, right down to a tiny loading gate. Adequate for self-defense? Not really, but I REALLY wouldn’t want to get shot with one (or more)
Particularly prior to the discovery of antibiotics.
http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/hdh%2020%20coups%20catalogue-01.jpg
Still to understand what kind of cartridge this 6,5 mm Velodog is…
‘Velocipede’ was the first name given to bicycles in many countries. Velodog revolvers were originally designed for cyclists to defend themselves against dogs.
https://www.ma-shops.co.uk/shops/search.php?searchstr=North+Korea&ref=autocomplete
Sorry, wrong link. Here’s the correct one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velo-dog
The name is a contraction of “velocipede anti-dog”. Meaning, it was intended for bicyclists to shoot attacking dogs with. Imagine the hoopla if you did that today.
Physically and ballistically, it was a rimmed centerfire, nominally 5.5 x 29Rmm, loaded with black powder and a 45-grain FMJRN bullet. Generally chambered in very small revolvers with very short barrels, or even similarly tiny pepperboxes intended to be concealed in the ends of bicycle handlebars.
Muzzle velocity averaged 700 F/S and muzzle energy was around 50 FPE. In other words, rather less powerful than the average American .22 Short rimfire from a pistol-length barrel.
In terms of dimensions and etc., the 5.5mm Velo-Dog was largely indistinguishable from the .22 Extra Long Maynard centerfire of 1882 (5.6 x 30Rmm), which was itself a CF version of the .22 XL rimfire gallery round. From a rifle barrel, with a 45-grain bullet in front of 8-10 grains of FFFg black powder, the Maynard averaged 1,100 F/S and 120 FPE.
One irritating thing about the Velo-Dog round is that different ammunition makers called it a 5mm, a 5.6mm, and a 6mm at different times. In fact, there is only one “spec” for it, and you can find it on pages 218 and 255 of Cartridges of the World 6th edition, by Frank C. Barnes (DBI Books, 1989).
cheers
eon
By the way: why has the 5.75mm Velodog cartridge so elongated catridge case?
As far as I know, the 5.75mm Velodog cartridge originally – if not always – loaded with smokeless powder. The energy density of the smokeless powder is greater than the black powder: why does it need greater case capacitiy, than the .22 Short, which originally loaded with black powder? Also as far as I know, the narrow and long case are not well-suited for the combustion of the gunpowder: especially for the smokeless powder.
“One irritating thing about the Velo-Dog round is that different ammunition makers called it a 5mm, a 5.6mm, and a 6mm at different times. In fact, there is only one »spec« for it, and you can find it on pages 218 and 255 of Cartridges of the World 6th edition, by Frank C. Barnes (DBI Books, 1989).”
→
You can also find the C.I.P standard of this caliber here:
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page3.pdf
Long, straight-walled cases were pretty much standard for black-powder centerfires, simply because most were designed for single-shot actions. The straight-walled cases, with or without slight taper, were easier to extract in such actions.
Also, black powder burns more evenly in a case that does not have a bottleneck. Remember, black powder combustion is an “all at once” proposition, with almost all combustion occurring in the cartridge case itself; progressive burning smokeless powders generate most of their pressure in the gun barrel.
If you want to see how the straight-wall case concept can be carried to extremes in black-powder cartridges, look up the 8 x 58R or 8 x 72R Sauer rounds.
cheers
eon
“…why has the 5.75mm Velodog cartridge so elongated catridge case?..”(C)
Apparently, in order to put a maximum of gunpowder into the cartridge with a minimum diameter of the brass.
This is necessary both for the minimum diameter of the drum and to reduce the load on the frame from the increased pressure on the nitro powder.
And yes, the 5.75 velodog cartridge was already born in nitro.
You confused with .22LR.
The understanding that putting in so much gunpowder (especially with such a short barrel), is pointless, came later.
Then the 6.35 cartridge appeared, as optimally balanced in terms of power.
You can put in twice as much gunpowder, but you will only notice an increase in muzzle blast.
Actually, the pressure of a 22LR cartridge from the late 19th century is 10-13 kPCI.
Modern cartridges develop up to a maximum of 26kPCI.
For a 5.75 velodog, this is up to about 10kPCI, so they are close. But I think that this is a reinsurance for use in the original revolvers, which were often made of mediocre steel, and they themselves were tired of old age.
And the load on the frame depends not only on the pressure itself, but equally, on the bottom area of the brass.
I think, to a large extent, the matter is in the gunpowder produced then.
The first official Galland’s velodog appeared in 1894.
And Vieille’s Poudre B appeared in 1884. Apparently, it was used in this cartridge, since the use of early nitro powders in revolvers was too risky.
This rifle powder had a lamellar appearance that was not well suited to small diameter brass and weak primers. Therefore, it had to be loaded more than the more suitable pistol gunpowder that appeared later.
“Smokeless powders for use in shotguns began in Europe with Schultze (made
from wood pulp and really only semi-smokeless) in 1862, continued with
Volkmann in 1870, and with EC (made from cotton) in England in 1882. These
early powders were “bulk” powders, measured to the same volume as black
powder, and not by weight, like the “dense” smokeless powders created later. “(C)
In US “Among the first smokeless powders produced by DuPont were Shotgun Smokeless in 1894.”(C)
https://www.castpics.net/subsite2/GeneralReference/L&R-Smokeless.pdf
“The name is a contraction of “velocipede anti-dog”. Meaning, it was intended for bicyclists to shoot attacking dogs with. Imagine the hoopla if you did that today.”
Even back then there were users which wished to fend off said animals rather than harming for whom pepper-load was developed. https://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/90600504584/velo-dog-revolvers-developed-in-the-late-19th
Some of the cartridges were loaded with cork, pepper or dust shot for those who wished to scare off the animals not harm them.
@Stiven & eon: Thank you for your asnwer.
“why has the 5.75mm Velodog cartridge so elongated catridge case?”
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I asked it, because the more powerful .22 LR has shorter case and virtually identical diameter, see: .221 Askins.
⇒
“This is necessary both for the minimum diameter of the drum and to reduce the load on the frame from the increased pressure on the nitro powder.”
Yes, according to the C.I.P. standards, the maximum pressures:
.22 LR: 1,800 bar
5,75 mm Velodog: 680 bar.
I think, you found the right answer. – Thank you.
Half-OFFtopic: there is (was? – It was available a few weeks ago.) a great site: velodogs.com.
Many thanks to all who answered.
I also know how to use google search.
The question is, “what kind of cartridge this 6,5 mm Velodog is?”.
You can, probably, call the 5.75 mm cartridge a 5.5 or 6 mm cartridge.
But not 6.5.
I can’t find anything similar.
And it’s not the first time…
There are not many suitable cartridges. And most of them appeared along with the corresponding self-loading pistols.
I think this will fit.
http://old.municion.org/6Mm/6_5Karcher.htm
And yes.
From the video, it is far from always possible to understand how many and which grooves are in the barrel.
Or, at least, whether they are there at all…
The San Antonio Light newspaper of 19 March 1885 carries an article that describes a pocket pistol of “Parisian manufacture” with “a cylinder capable of holding 20 cartridges at a load.” “It has two barrels and two triggers, self cocking, patent cartridge ejecting, etc.” Thought you might be interested. Please accept my thanks for your work in/on/with Forgotten Weapons. The quality shows.