How well do the Jatimatic’s recoil-controlling features work? Will the front grip snap off while firing? Can I actually get the progressive trigger to work? Let’s find out!
Antiques
Adventures in Surplus: An M91 Mosin of Many Flags
Today we are taking a look at an early production M1891 Mosin Nagant rifle. This one has had quite a busy history…it was originally manufactured at the Izhevsk Arsenal in 1894, with several of the […]
Commentary
Dr. Jackson Crawford’s Thoughts on Finnish Brutality 2022
I am very happy to have had the chance to introduce my friend Dr. Jackson Crawford to Brutality matches this year, at Finnish Brutality 2022. I thought we should take a few minutes to sit […]
Light MGs
Light Machine Gun Comparison: Finnish LS26 vs Russian DP28
Before the Winter War, the standard light machine gun adopted by the Finnish military was the Lahti-Saloranta LS-26. This was a complex and finely built weapon, using a short recoil action and tilting bolt, chambered […]
“It’s just not that good”
Dreams shattered!
The ultimate Movie Fantasy/action hero fantasy piece
How hard would it be to 1) add a telescoping stock and 2) refine the full auto trigger? It would make a cool gun seriously competitive.
“(…)add a telescoping stock(…)”
Feature vaunted by its’ manufacturer https://www.smallarmsreview.com/archive/detail.arc.entry.cfm?arcid=998 was it small size (see comparison with light submachine gun) and low weight With this construction it has been possible to make a gun weighing 1,65 kg and have performance similar to guns weighing about 4 kg.
Therefore increasing size and weight would be against what they want to achieve.
Any idea what is causing the abysmally heavy second stage pull on the trigger?
Is it a problem with design or execution?
As Ed has already asked
Might the concept form a basis for further development, for example by a better trigger, proper stock, proper (and seperate) cooking handle, front grip and bolt locks, longer receiver to lessen the impact of the bolt on the back end of the receiver housing?
Or are the individual features of the gun just pointless gimmicks?
Quite possibly intentional, to rectify a problem sometimes seen with “progressive” triggers: a light, consistent spring force can result in unintentional overtravel to FA under stress. Adding a heavy secondary spring decreases the likelihood of a burst without serious, deliberate effort.
I agree with your / Ed’s potential improvements, to which I’d also recommend a mag-in-grip design. That would improve balance, make for intuitive “hand finds hand” loading, and – coupled with a longer receiver as you said – require a much shorter collapsing stock.
BTW (not that I’m complaining; it was amazing to get two FW e-mails, two days in a row!) was anyone able to find the “Skorpion 9×19 at the Range” video? I got both links today, but still can’t get that one to work, or find it on the site.
I am wondering if full auto trigger pull is worse than HK VP70?
Every time someone writes “hands find hands”, a unicorn dies 🙂 It is a most repeated and cringey Uzi trope, bar none.
In any case, from ergonomics standpoint, making it with such Uzi/Ingram type of design, would change the intentioned balance and dynamics of whole gun maybe almost to the point it would negate itself, thus making the construction more complicated (bolt travelling at angle) with no perceived benefit.
Uzi/Ingram/CZs (Gen 3) may seem a minority until one considers that they were some of the last mass-produced SMGs before the whole segment became largely obsolete. The few who still wanted subguns either bought one of those, settled for WW2-leftover handouts, or scaled-down their standard assault rifle.
A better example is the pistol market, which largely began with mag-forward C96s and Bergmanns, then universally accepted the superior ergonomics and balance of “cringey” mag-in-grip layout. Mag-forward “pistols” gained a bit of popularity as braces became legal (i.e. for people who don’t use them as pistols), but if brace restrictions take effect the Jatimatic layout will revert to a tiny minority of impractical range toys that people bought because they looked cool in a movie or game (guilty!).
I agree that there would be challenges in redesigning around the inclined bolt, though.
“(…)Is it a problem with design or execution?(…)”
Jatimatic itself spawned 7,62 x 25 sub-machine gun named 411, see 1st photo from right
https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Jatimatic#Variants
now I am wondering about its’ felt recoil and if mentioned issues were inherited
Maybe 7.62x25mm is just a better calibre for a smg, possibly… I think that is better idea; Ppsh with 43 mag well,banana mag only. Wood stock, add a mosin folding bayonet. Mg42 as support, and use wee 51mm mortars more; have conscripts spray everyone and attempt to stab, force frightened pockets of troops into zones to be hit by 51mm’s by the Mg42. Rest of big wars, is probably artillery. Well cash… But spent well. A Ppsh in 7.62 Tokarev as desribed I think would be a much better battle “rifle” all round. Throw in some Dragunovs. I quite like the idea of automatic mortars, in 51mm. Mg42 it high fire rate, want to be cheap and simple mind.
Just saying, 9mm was a pistol round folk had… But 7.62x25mm was also a pistol round folk had; so like looking at smgs, the performance of 7.62x25mm is better “conscripts can hit” thus, using the pistol is better.
Further to that along those lines, I do think the Ak47 in 7.62x39mm was not the best idea over an sks and ppsh. Given the Ak was pratically… M14 in usefullness, in full auto. Clearly 5.45 changed that… But, with that Ppsh’s are cheaper.
Meh, if we are all going to world war… Be on grease guns in no time, same as planes; want to really plan to be able to make the best mig 21 cheapest most effective “including drone tech/kamakazie” version prior i.e. Now.
For use when all these “peacetime” multimillion dollar, cannon fodder are lost. In about month of actual fighting.
Mig 17’s even, pump them out; ideally cheaper than western air defence. And thus air support, to folding spikey bayonet wooden stocked folk on the ground.
About a billion Chinese folk, job done.
Until someone invents practical waist to knee armour, I say shoot the armour plated enemy in the nuts at 1200rpm in 7.62x25mm. Job done.
Gast gun type, link set up between two 51mm tubes; top feeding rotary drum – drop tube – belt “aircraft chain gun type” fed mag. Bit ww1 mg propeller timing lark, to let the mag work, with the “barrels” firing through at the same time. Drone lark. Sort of a smart claymore, but top attack. 25rds in about 5 secs on designated wee grid squares. Reckon that would be a bitch. With a mg42, and sprayy stabby clubby ppshs.
The auto mini mortars just wander around dumping rounds at opportune moments.
Future of war eh, so much to look forward too; paying our subs into gayto.
Makes me wonder if it would not be better spent on cancer treatment frankly; which seems somewhat “of an old design”
Spunk. Aye semen, is not attacked by the immune system. So on. Must be better ways of treating cancer, than trying “often without success to kill it, with essentially a musket” I haven’t got cancer I am just saying, just because 9mm was around does not mean it is the solution. So to speak… As with cancer.
Take the Crow; scarecows, shotguns so on… Yet the seed is still taken by crows, but with two resident crows far less seed is taken because they keep away other crows.
Anyway, meh.
I mean we had 9mm pistols or ze Germans did, so logistically etc that became 9mm smgs. But it was not the best calibre for a smg, 7.62x25mm is… And it works as a pistol; just, which are not used much anyway.
“(…) idea of automatic mortars, in 51mm(…)”
If you are accept machine rather than automatic and 5cm rather than 51mm then answer is M19 Maschinengranatwerfer
“(…)make the best mig 21 cheapest most effective “including drone tech/kamakazie” version prior(…)”
Well, actually even more ancient flying machines were rebuilt into this fashion, namely Azerbaijani An-2 https://en.topwar.ru/193327-dlja-vojny-i-dlja-mira-novye-bespilotniki-iz-staryh-an-2.html which were equipped with limited capability remote control equipment and loaded with explosive. These were started by human pilot which then left said machine using parachute, thus hinting that this is actually 1940s-level technology (viz. OPERATION APHRODITE). It was used during conflict in Haut-Karabagh. I must warn you that it has side-effect of teasing AA radars into activating.
Both interesting links, thanks. Funny old world. He he…
I did not expect to see a range firing of the CZ vz 68. But I am surprised that the recent very interesting video about it has disappeared from this website.
It is moot point in redesigning whole gun that is long out of production, but at least functionality wise and for fun of shooting, for that particular example thats legal in US, maybe to convert it to full auto only, and add some different front grip, perhaps strongly fixed to barrel (like in Ingram, just not a strap), and somehow redesign “cocking grip” out of the way, to serve just for that purpose and not for holding.
At the very least, with a prominent finger guard to keep the support hand out of the muzzle.