Heckler & Koch introduced the UMP submachine gun as a successor to the MP5, with a particular focus on American law enforcement agencies (hence its initial development in .45 ACP). The UMP never has come close to the popularity of the MP5; it is a very basic polymer molded simple blowback SMG, albeit a hammer-fired, closed-bolt one. However, H&K did release a civilian version of it in semiautomatic only; the USC. These were initially made in a grey color like the SL-8, but demand was substantial enough to prompt continued production in black.
Compared to the UMP, the USC has a neutered magazine well that fits only proprietary 10-round magazines, a thumbhole type fixed stock, and a heavy 16″ barrel. I suspect a majority of the demand for the USC comes form people planning to swap out all these elements to properly clone the UMP…
This is the deja vu version. Several slightly duplications of description and disassembly. Otherwise, great video. This was a splendid video.
So, it was not my imagination-not my imagination.
I never saw the point of a semi-auto version of a sub-machine gun. SMGs are not that accurate, because the design was based upon putting lots of bullets in a general area, not a single bullet in a very small area.
I know I will get hate for this, but I would say that a sub $400 Hi-Point carbine will do the job just fine, and cost less than a $1,500 flashy show-off carbine from a “prestige” European manufacturer.
PCCs are more effective than pistols, and have less blast than full power rifles, even in intermediate chamberings – which is why lever actions in pistol cartridges have been popular for more than 150 years. But a straight blowback HiPoint in .45 ACP is significantly less expensive than the straight blowback HK UMP, the HiPoint can be easily converted to use 1911 magazines or use 20 round single stack mags, or dropped into a functional bullpup stock.
The MP5 and the HK 94 are very accurate. I can only assume you have never shot either. Had a few semiautomatic Uzis that were pretty accurate as well especially with the wood stock.
No hate here people buy what they can afford and there’s nothing really wrong with the $400 Highpoint if thats all you can swing.
They are, but in this case (as Ian noted) you aren’t getting any more except an expensive “hood ornament”. You’re paying expensive-gun money for something that isn’t better than cheap guns in any way (and is significantly worse in others) solely because the company happens to make good (but essentially unrelated) guns.
My comment was directed solely at Bart’s.
The civilian UMP is not made for price conscious home defenders, but rather for collectors and people who go to the range with it.
“(…)point of a semi-auto version of a sub-machine gun(…)”
I would say such fire-arms might be useful for law enforcement employees who want to maintain skill-at-arms in their own time, that is when they consider allocated training as not sufficient.
For a very long time the British police would use a semi-auto-only MP5SF. The FBI allowed field agents to draw one to keep in the trunk (“boot” to you Brits), should they feel the need to have one available.
Lots of U.S. police departments issued MP5 variants that were basically a bit like the old M14 service rifle: Theoretically capable of select-fire, but requiring much more than a simple flick of the giggle switch to arm full-auto. In effect, these were semi-auto-only 9mm SMGs.
Thing is, semi-auto fire is more accurate. If the full-auto selector is engaged, short bursts… Like 2 or 3 rounds, is more accurate than simply spraying bullets hither and yon.
As others up-post have noted: any shoulder-stocked pistol-caliber carbine can out shoot a pistol, particularly in less experienced hands, or if the user is cold, wet, ill, injured, tired or variations on those themes.
No surprise, Dave. In my opinion, handguns in real combat (and not Hollywood police arrests or worse, real life police brutality against ethnic minorities) are mostly used to settle grappling arguments (or, as I put it, “GET YOUR MITTS OFF ME!!”). A Desert Eagle might be used to impress other rich people at a shooting range, but a Henry Homesteader carbine (or heck, even a break-action shotgun) is pretty easy to aim at intruders if your house gets invaded (hint: trying to grab a long arm barrel while being right in front of it is a very stupid idea).
Some anecdotal things to note:
My early gray example does not have the serial number on the butt-stock as does the black example in this video.
I bought a gray one in early 2007 which had a serial number of 47-0067XX. I then bought a later black one in late 2012 merely because it was on a cheap discount sale at a ‘big box’ store (5 years later) that had a serial number of only 47-0108XX – so while there is no way to be wholly accurate if the serial numbers matched the years made, but if so, then from roughly 2007 to 2012 HK only made a little over 4000 over the course of 5 years.
My old Ruger PC4 in .40SW is more accurate than my 2 HK USCs – at 1/3rd the cost. My Marlin Camp Carbine in .45ACP is just as accurate as the HKs, if not slightly better.
There are companies that make well-made aftermarket lowers that allow the HK USC to accept M3 doublestack magazines (because the upper is the serialized part for those wondering) – some minor trimming of the mag-well feed hole on the inside of the upper, and you’re good. Mine runs just as well and reliable with the M3 magazines as it did with the original USC 10-round magazines.
You can also dye the gray polymer of the earlier guns to black with a recipe of combining certain Rit Dye liquid for synthetics of 3-part black to 1-part yellow. Plenty of info can be found across the internet on the right combinations to get the black you want. Don’t use black only; it comes out more like a dark blue or purple. (I’ve done this on other things that were gray, not my USC).
However, I suspect there weren’t as many of the gray versions made, and with so many people dyeing their gray guns to black, I would not doubt that one day it will be a rare find to come across an original HK USC in gray that Ian will need to do another ‘Forgotten Weapons’ video on a gray example for that reason alone . I left mine gray purely because I like the ‘urban’ color scheme and because I was seeing so many people dye them to black.
—
https://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/
clear ether
eon
well H&K trying to work with the restrictive export laws of Germany and the protectionist import laws and local gun legislation of the U.S.A. gives you guns like the USC. For the most part H&K is selling to goverments anyway. Civilian gun sales are an afterthought and well it shows. And really with all the weird laws and each country is different i would be ignoring the civilian market as well. Especially when my firm is skilled in working with goverment procurement processes. Those long term contracts are really nice and not as fickle as the fashion trends in civilian firearms.
That does not excuse unfriendly arrogant employees, when you get into civilian sales. Whrn you do that, do it right.
That was a reply meant for eons “you suck and we hate you” post.
Over forty years ago now, I had to deal with H&K sales reps flogging the MP5 on at least a monthly basis. Basically telling every sheriff’s department and PD what a great value it was at (at that time) $1500 a copy, police price (which was always lower than “retail”, as if there was a commercial market other than corp security and DoD “contractors”).
They liked to demonstrate cool, edgy stuff like the “HK slap” and etc., and how good it was at hitting targets at 100 yards (yes, we still had ranges in yards back then, Neanderthals that we were).
Then of course we’d get the spiel about how incredibly lucky and privileged we were that we were being given the chance to buy this wonderful device by the marvelously public-spirited firm of Heckler & Koch USA. Not the same as Heckler und Koch GmBh FRG, at all- as they’d tell you. That was the workaround to both German export law and U.S. import law.
After an hour or so of this, the sheriff, or deputy chief, or my own boss would tip me the nod, and I’d pull out the M1 or M2 Carbine I’d drawn from armory. And proceed to shoot rings around the MP5, especially on accuracy. (PS; the M2 had a higher RoF than the MP5 but was still entirely controllable.)
The HK rep invariably got very quiet and lost his used-car-salesman smarmy smile when the Carbine came out to play.
Keep in mind, these were army surplus carbines, mostly made in the 1945-52 time frame. They still consistently outperformed brand-new MP5s.And cost a lot less.
I wouldn’t expect a UMP- or USC- to do much if any better than an MP5 in a similar side-by-side comparison.
And yes, I have used and owned HK products, ranging from HK91 rifles to the USP .45 pistol. About the only one I ever saw much merit in was the VP70 9mm pistol, in either selective-fire or semi-auto only (VP70Z) versions. With its polymer frame, high-capacity magazine, non-selective double-action-only lockwork, and mule-stupid, never-fail blowback action, it was really the first “wondernine”.
The VP70 was a quarter-century ahead of its time, and deserved a better fate than the obscurity it has been relegated to today.
As for all other things HK; you can get just as good or better for less a lot of other places. Even if you’re buying for a law enforcement organization.
Sorry to state, but those are the facts.
clear ether
eon
Jesus, eon… The VP-70 is about the last handgun I’d have expected you to champion.
I loved the idea, loved the execution of it… And, then I had the opportunity to fire it, and that trigger pull? Dear God… The only thing I can think of that was even remotely as bad was any of the cheap-ass stapleguns I used to use putting targets up.
Conceptually, the VP-70 was an interesting idea; execution-wise? I can’t see much to recommend, aside from a “Yeah, have a look at this, and don’t do what they did…” sort of thing. Some weapons exist only so as to serve as bad examples.
I witnessed more than a few sorts who couldn’t muster the strength to make that trigger pull and still manage to hit anything with it.
When I said “execution” in the first part, that I loved? The overall mechanical assembly/manufacture…
The second “execution” is the actual experience of firing, which did not rise to the level of expectations formed by the initial handling of the pistol… That trigger still stands out, in my mind. Horrid.
There’s not much “innovation” in the VP-70; it’s a plastic MAC or Hi-Point – except the trigger is literally as bad as both of those bad triggers added together. Using the rifling to vent pressure, velocity, and recoil to .380 levels is a novel solution of achieving controllability when one has large stocks of 9mm, but accomplishes nothing that simply using .380 wouldn’t.
@Kirk,
OK, I’ll try again minus the words the censor doesn’t like.
The VP70’s heavy trigger was its one major drawback. But when I look at the Glock “New York Trigger” I wonder if it was a civil liability “issue”.
I noticed back then that officers used to the “short action” DA trigger on S&W M10s or M19s found the VP70 trigger manageable. Ones used to the old “long action” on the Smiths didn’t like it at all.
Another reason for that trigger was apparently the powerful striker spring, intended to ensure reliable ignition of the “hard” primers of European milspec 9mm back then. I noticed that when NATO standardized the 9 x 19mm spec in the mid-Eighties they defined a softer primer that wouldn’t require a second strike by most pistols, as opposed to “slamfire” SMGs that pretty much didn’t care.
I have to consider the VP70 to be HK’s best “near miss”. they came soooo close to getting it right. But you know what they say about “close”.
As opposed to the USP, especially in .45. I had one, and it turned me off HK products pretty much permanently.
cheers
eon
The VP70(M) was never truly intended to be a semi-automatic pistol even though its very name means ‘the people’s pistol’ just like Volkswagen is ‘the people’s car’. It was launched as a submachine pistol with detachable shoulder stock option to activate it’s select-fire option, but upon lackluster interest, was then diverted to commercial semi-auto sales as the VP70Z.
HK won’t cop to that, because they won’t admit their failures, even when obvious. It’s the very reason that trigger is the worst trigger ever on a semi-auto, even worse than a Colt All American 2000 – a resistant trigger intended for sturdy select-fire/3-burst surety.
Just one look at the VP70Z’s deep cut rifling, that they retained from their 3-burst parent, is a dead give-away to the fact it was originally and only meant to be military/police contract submachine pistols.
I have a few, 2 of which are consecutive serial numbrered examples chambered in 9mm x 21mm, of only 400 made. In the 1970s, yes, they were the coolest, most amazing, high capacity pistol you could buy, way ahead of all ‘wonder nines’ at that time. And more reliable than anything on the market until Glock came along – the crappy trigger being the only real sore spot.
—
Meant to say “the VP70(M) was never truly intended to (ONLY) be a semi-automatic pistol”.
—
—