Heckler & Koch introduced the UMP submachine gun as a successor to the MP5, with a particular focus on American law enforcement agencies (hence its initial development in .45 ACP). The UMP never has come close to the popularity of the MP5; it is a very basic polymer molded simple blowback SMG, albeit a hammer-fired, closed-bolt one. However, H&K did release a civilian version of it in semiautomatic only; the USC. These were initially made in a grey color like the SL-8, but demand was substantial enough to prompt continued production in black.
Compared to the UMP, the USC has a neutered magazine well that fits only proprietary 10-round magazines, a thumbhole type fixed stock, and a heavy 16″ barrel. I suspect a majority of the demand for the USC comes form people planning to swap out all these elements to properly clone the UMP…
This is the deja vu version. Several slightly duplications of description and disassembly. Otherwise, great video. This was a splendid video.
So, it was not my imagination-not my imagination.
I never saw the point of a semi-auto version of a sub-machine gun. SMGs are not that accurate, because the design was based upon putting lots of bullets in a general area, not a single bullet in a very small area.
I know I will get hate for this, but I would say that a sub $400 Hi-Point carbine will do the job just fine, and cost less than a $1,500 flashy show-off carbine from a “prestige” European manufacturer.
PCCs are more effective than pistols, and have less blast than full power rifles, even in intermediate chamberings – which is why lever actions in pistol cartridges have been popular for more than 150 years. But a straight blowback HiPoint in .45 ACP is significantly less expensive than the straight blowback HK UMP, the HiPoint can be easily converted to use 1911 magazines or use 20 round single stack mags, or dropped into a functional bullpup stock.
The MP5 and the HK 94 are very accurate. I can only assume you have never shot either. Had a few semiautomatic Uzis that were pretty accurate as well especially with the wood stock.
No hate here people buy what they can afford and there’s nothing really wrong with the $400 Highpoint if thats all you can swing.
They are, but in this case (as Ian noted) you aren’t getting any more except an expensive “hood ornament”. You’re paying expensive-gun money for something that isn’t better than cheap guns in any way (and is significantly worse in others) solely because the company happens to make good (but essentially unrelated) guns.
My comment was directed solely at Bart’s.
The civilian UMP is not made for price conscious home defenders, but rather for collectors and people who go to the range with it.
“(…)point of a semi-auto version of a sub-machine gun(…)”
I would say such fire-arms might be useful for law enforcement employees who want to maintain skill-at-arms in their own time, that is when they consider allocated training as not sufficient.
For a very long time the British police would use a semi-auto-only MP5SF. The FBI allowed field agents to draw one to keep in the trunk (“boot” to you Brits), should they feel the need to have one available.
Lots of U.S. police departments issued MP5 variants that were basically a bit like the old M14 service rifle: Theoretically capable of select-fire, but requiring much more than a simple flick of the giggle switch to arm full-auto. In effect, these were semi-auto-only 9mm SMGs.
Thing is, semi-auto fire is more accurate. If the full-auto selector is engaged, short bursts… Like 2 or 3 rounds, is more accurate than simply spraying bullets hither and yon.
As others up-post have noted: any shoulder-stocked pistol-caliber carbine can out shoot a pistol, particularly in less experienced hands, or if the user is cold, wet, ill, injured, tired or variations on those themes.
No surprise, Dave. In my opinion, handguns in real combat (and not Hollywood police arrests or worse, real life police brutality against ethnic minorities) are mostly used to settle grappling arguments (or, as I put it, “GET YOUR MITTS OFF ME!!”). A Desert Eagle might be used to impress other rich people at a shooting range, but a Henry Homesteader carbine (or heck, even a break-action shotgun) is pretty easy to aim at intruders if your house gets invaded (hint: trying to grab a long arm barrel while being right in front of it is a very stupid idea).
Overpriced junk.
Some anecdotal things to note:
My early gray example does not have the serial number on the butt-stock as does the black example in this video.
I bought a gray one in early 2007 which had a serial number of 47-0067XX. I then bought a later black one in late 2012 merely because it was on a cheap discount sale at a ‘big box’ store (5 years later) that had a serial number of only 47-0108XX – so while there is no way to be wholly accurate if the serial numbers matched the years made, but if so, then from roughly 2007 to 2012 HK only made a little over 4000 over the course of 5 years.
My old Ruger PC4 in .40SW is more accurate than my 2 HK USCs – at 1/3rd the cost. My Marlin Camp Carbine in .45ACP is just as accurate as the HKs, if not slightly better.
There are companies that make well-made aftermarket lowers that allow the HK USC to accept M3 doublestack magazines (because the upper is the serialized part for those wondering) – some minor trimming of the mag-well feed hole on the inside of the upper, and you’re good. Mine runs just as well and reliable with the M3 magazines as it did with the original USC 10-round magazines.
You can also dye the gray polymer of the earlier guns to black with a recipe of combining certain Rit Dye liquid for synthetics of 3-part black to 1-part yellow. Plenty of info can be found across the internet on the right combinations to get the black you want. Don’t use black only; it comes out more like a dark blue or purple. (I’ve done this on other things that were gray, not my USC).
However, I suspect there weren’t as many of the gray versions made, and with so many people dyeing their gray guns to black, I would not doubt that one day it will be a rare find to come across an original HK USC in gray that Ian will need to do another ‘Forgotten Weapons’ video on a gray example for that reason alone . I left mine gray purely because I like the ‘urban’ color scheme and because I was seeing so many people dye them to black.
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https://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/
clear ether
eon
well H&K trying to work with the restrictive export laws of Germany and the protectionist import laws and local gun legislation of the U.S.A. gives you guns like the USC. For the most part H&K is selling to goverments anyway. Civilian gun sales are an afterthought and well it shows. And really with all the weird laws and each country is different i would be ignoring the civilian market as well. Especially when my firm is skilled in working with goverment procurement processes. Those long term contracts are really nice and not as fickle as the fashion trends in civilian firearms.
That does not excuse unfriendly arrogant employees, when you get into civilian sales. Whrn you do that, do it right.
That was a reply meant for eons “you suck and we hate you” post.
Over forty years ago now, I had to deal with H&K sales reps flogging the MP5 on at least a monthly basis. Basically telling every sheriff’s department and PD what a great value it was at (at that time) $1500 a copy, police price (which was always lower than “retail”, as if there was a commercial market other than corp security and DoD “contractors”).
They liked to demonstrate cool, edgy stuff like the “HK slap” and etc., and how good it was at hitting targets at 100 yards (yes, we still had ranges in yards back then, Neanderthals that we were).
Then of course we’d get the spiel about how incredibly lucky and privileged we were that we were being given the chance to buy this wonderful device by the marvelously public-spirited firm of Heckler & Koch USA. Not the same as Heckler und Koch GmBh FRG, at all- as they’d tell you. That was the workaround to both German export law and U.S. import law.
After an hour or so of this, the sheriff, or deputy chief, or my own boss would tip me the nod, and I’d pull out the M1 or M2 Carbine I’d drawn from armory. And proceed to shoot rings around the MP5, especially on accuracy. (PS; the M2 had a higher RoF than the MP5 but was still entirely controllable.)
The HK rep invariably got very quiet and lost his used-car-salesman smarmy smile when the Carbine came out to play.
Keep in mind, these were army surplus carbines, mostly made in the 1945-52 time frame. They still consistently outperformed brand-new MP5s.And cost a lot less.
I wouldn’t expect a UMP- or USC- to do much if any better than an MP5 in a similar side-by-side comparison.
And yes, I have used and owned HK products, ranging from HK91 rifles to the USP .45 pistol. About the only one I ever saw much merit in was the VP70 9mm pistol, in either selective-fire or semi-auto only (VP70Z) versions. With its polymer frame, high-capacity magazine, non-selective double-action-only lockwork, and mule-stupid, never-fail blowback action, it was really the first “wondernine”.
The VP70 was a quarter-century ahead of its time, and deserved a better fate than the obscurity it has been relegated to today.
As for all other things HK; you can get just as good or better for less a lot of other places. Even if you’re buying for a law enforcement organization.
Sorry to state, but those are the facts.
clear ether
eon
Jesus, eon… The VP-70 is about the last handgun I’d have expected you to champion.
I loved the idea, loved the execution of it… And, then I had the opportunity to fire it, and that trigger pull? Dear God… The only thing I can think of that was even remotely as bad was any of the cheap-ass stapleguns I used to use putting targets up.
Conceptually, the VP-70 was an interesting idea; execution-wise? I can’t see much to recommend, aside from a “Yeah, have a look at this, and don’t do what they did…” sort of thing. Some weapons exist only so as to serve as bad examples.
I witnessed more than a few sorts who couldn’t muster the strength to make that trigger pull and still manage to hit anything with it.
When I said “execution” in the first part, that I loved? The overall mechanical assembly/manufacture…
The second “execution” is the actual experience of firing, which did not rise to the level of expectations formed by the initial handling of the pistol… That trigger still stands out, in my mind. Horrid.
There’s not much “innovation” in the VP-70; it’s a plastic MAC or Hi-Point – except the trigger is literally as bad as both of those bad triggers added together. Using the rifling to vent pressure, velocity, and recoil to .380 levels is a novel solution of achieving controllability when one has large stocks of 9mm, but accomplishes nothing that simply using .380 wouldn’t.
@Kirk,
OK, I’ll try again minus the words the censor doesn’t like.
The VP70’s heavy trigger was its one major drawback. But when I look at the Glock “New York Trigger” I wonder if it was a civil liability “issue”.
I noticed back then that officers used to the “short action” DA trigger on S&W M10s or M19s found the VP70 trigger manageable. Ones used to the old “long action” on the Smiths didn’t like it at all.
Another reason for that trigger was apparently the powerful striker spring, intended to ensure reliable ignition of the “hard” primers of European milspec 9mm back then. I noticed that when NATO standardized the 9 x 19mm spec in the mid-Eighties they defined a softer primer that wouldn’t require a second strike by most pistols, as opposed to “slamfire” SMGs that pretty much didn’t care.
I have to consider the VP70 to be HK’s best “near miss”. they came soooo close to getting it right. But you know what they say about “close”.
As opposed to the USP, especially in .45. I had one, and it turned me off HK products pretty much permanently.
cheers
eon
The VP70(M) was never truly intended to be a semi-automatic pistol even though its very name means ‘the people’s pistol’ just like Volkswagen is ‘the people’s car’. It was launched as a submachine pistol with detachable shoulder stock option to activate it’s select-fire option, but upon lackluster interest, was then diverted to commercial semi-auto sales as the VP70Z.
HK won’t cop to that, because they won’t admit their failures, even when obvious. It’s the very reason that trigger is the worst trigger ever on a semi-auto, even worse than a Colt All American 2000 – a resistant trigger intended for sturdy select-fire/3-burst surety.
Just one look at the VP70Z’s deep cut rifling, that they retained from their 3-burst parent, is a dead give-away to the fact it was originally and only meant to be military/police contract submachine pistols.
I have a few, 2 of which are consecutive serial numbrered examples chambered in 9mm x 21mm, of only 400 made. In the 1970s, yes, they were the coolest, most amazing, high capacity pistol you could buy, way ahead of all ‘wonder nines’ at that time. And more reliable than anything on the market until Glock came along – the crappy trigger being the only real sore spot.
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Meant to say “the VP70(M) was never truly intended to (ONLY) be a semi-automatic pistol”.
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That’s exactly the take I had on the VP70, that it was meant to be something other than an actual handgun. Being as I was in the market for a pistol, well… Yeah. My impressions were based off of that set of criteria.
At the time, it was VP70 vs. Steyr GB vs. S&W 559. I eventually went with the 559, and rather wish I’d gone for the GB instead, because that, at least, would have been a conversation-starter on the range. The 559 was just a clunky, too-heavy wannabe copy of the original Model 59 from the Hush Puppy development contracts, right down to the fake-ass sight wings. Looked cool, shot like shit… I was still digging shavings out of that pistol two years after I bought it, and I could never decide if it was just “wearing in” or if there had been that much “slop” left over from the original machining in all the nooks and crannies… And, mind you, I’d had that thing torn down and soaked in an automotive parts washer in a futile attempt to get all the gunk out of it.
I was permanently soured on Smith & Wesson automatics after that, despite my generally positive experience with a Model 39-2 my stepdad had owned.
I don’t know what the VP70 trigger pull would have been like on a shoulder arm, and on fully-automatic or burst, but I can’t imagine it would have been a great aid for accurate shooting.
I can truthfully say that my first S&W auto, a 645, was pretty good. My only objection was the sharp-as-a-wolverine’s-teeth serrations on the frontstrap and backstrap, which drew blood on my palm the first time out on the range. Emery paper quickly defanged both.
My only real objections to the 645 were the magazine safety it inherited from the P35, and the high bore line relative to the grip, which increased muzzle flip, especially in rapid fire. This is a problem I had with every first and second generation S&W DA auto, and one they never really solved until the M&P series, which is of course a wholly new design.
My second and last S&W auto was a Sigma .40. The less said about that one the better. I was at least partly responsible for the .40 S&W cartridge (contributed data to its development) and to this day I regret it. I can truthfully say that the Sigma was emphatically not my idea.
On the topic of autos, was the Ruger P85 really as bad as it’s reputed? It’s the one “wondernine” of the Eighties my agency never even tested.
Yes, we even tried out the original CZ75, and a few guys ended up buying them as off-duty guns.
cheers
eon
Let start with objective tests. This will be by police agencies and by the military. Lets start with the first one. It results is give in article: The great American pistol test. Appearing in Modern small arms by Ian van Hogg by Bison published in 1983.
Starting at the worst preforming. H&K VP 70 fired 5 rounds between failures. The 4 guns fired 771 rounds with 109 failures to fire. The 6 pound ( factor standard according to Wolff gunsprings) did not help. Remember the factor standard for a Glock pistol is 5 pound. Equil to the VP 70 was the Star M28 with 5 rounds between failures. Apparantly because of poor extractor design. Next the FN fast action with 28 rounds between failures. Next up is H&K P9S with 52 rounds between failures. Then FN Hi-Power with 72 rounds between failures. The Colt SSP had 121 rounds between failures. The FN DA , 415 rounds between failures. The M1911A1, 748 rounds between failures. The S&W M549 with 942 rounds between failures. The Best performer was the Beretta M92S with 2000 rounds between malfunctions.
Next is GAO report: NLAD86-122 The result of 1981:
H&K p7m8 169
M1911A1 165
S&W 459M 293
SIG 226 209
Beretta 92F 158
The result of 1985:
H&K p7m13 158
M1911A1 162
S&W 459M 434
SIG 226 2877
Beretta 92F 1750
Next is test by the FBI in 1987
RUGER P85 39
GLOCK 17 47
GLOCK 19 61
SIG P220 184
S&W 645 311
S&W M459 488
SIG P226 579
BERE’ITA M92 1166
The other test in 1987 also by FBI the Glock got 200 rounds between failures. It preformed even worse than Steyr GB that was terminated from XM9 test by the Army for poor reliability. The pistol was tested up to 600 rounds.
The last test I have is by Canadian Police Research Centre in 1994 (TM-10-94 Semi-Automatic Pistol Evaluation). There is summer of malfunctions that can be attributed to the weapon: Fail to feed. Fail to eject. Fail to extract. This for several different model from the same manufacture.
SIG 4360
Beretta 3064
H&K 1826
Ruger 898
GIock 865
S&W 579
The Ruger 85/89 have about the same reliability as Glock. The high reliability of the Glock is totally unfounded. That VP 70 was most reliable before the Glock appeared, is highly unlikely. Lets put some science behind the results. The citation is : Fikus, B., Koperski, W., Płatek, P., Surma, Z. and Trębiński, J., 2016. Experimental Investigations of Motion of Slide of Selected Pistol Types. Problemy Mechatroniki: uzbrojenie, lotnictwo, inżynieria bezpieczeństwa,7(4 (26), pp.23-32.
There is interesting table, table 4 in the publication. For pistol to effectively eject the slide must run at approximately 4 m/s. Of all the pistols tested the Glock has the lowest slide velocity. In Fig 9 it can also be seen that the Glock have lowest return velocity. In terms of energy the Sig has 1.4 times more energy than the Glock slide, but return the energy over longer period,making it softer shooting pistol. The most of failers of Glock will be failers to eject and failers to load. The low slide energy is why you can limp wrist the pistol. Glock is simply a poor mechanical design.
On the Ruger 85. From the TM-10-94 Semi-Automatic Pistol Evaluation report:It became apparent very early in the testing that the evaluators were avoiding the Ruger pistols. Their comments both written and verbally to the Armourers who were supervising the test were as follows: 1. The location and operation of the magazine release was considered to be a problem. 2. Trigger pull was long, heavy, and inconsistent. 3. The pistol is very large and Size A shooters were reluctant to complete the evaluation. 4. The magazines were difficult to load. 5. Recoil was considered heavy by the majority of evaluators.
MP 5 vs. M1 Carbine. 9 mm Luger vs. 30 Carbine. Your are firing a bullet with a better ballistic coefficient at a higher velocity. Will it be more accurate ? I suspect so.
VP 70 at 380 velocities. Your firing a 125 gr bullet vs 90 gr bullet. Even at same velocity the VP 70 will deliver nearly 40 % more energy.