https://forgottenweapons.vhx.tv/videos/glock-18-range
I’ve fired a number of different machine pistols, but until today never a Glock 18. So, we’re going to give it a try! This is an original factory example, not a conversion.
Mannlicher
Mannlicher 1901 & 1905 Pistols (Video)
The Model 1901 and 1905 automatic pistols were the final development of the Mannlicher system. In this iteration they used internal magazines, a straight walled 7.65mm cartridge, and a delayed blowback system in which the […]
Bolt Action Rifles
Mannlicher 88/95 – A Rare World War One Update
The Austro-Hungarian Empire went into World War One with the Steyr M95 straight-pull rifle as its standard infantry arm. Heavy losses in just the first few months of the war made it clear that the […]
Semiauto pistol
Slow Motion: Steyr-Mannlicher M1905
The 1905 Steyr-Mannlicher was developed by Ferdinand Mannlicher, one of Europe’s most prolific gun designers. It uses the 7.65mm Mannlicher cartridge, which is roughly equivalent to .32 ACP, with a 10-round fixed internal magazine. The […]
Why does this require a paid subscription sign up?
The paywall is unfortunately beyond my means.
The video is behind a paywall, I cannot comment on it.
But I have seen the Glock 18 in action and can comment on that.
From what I observed, neither “newbies” (people with a military, police or manufacturer background taking part in a seminar on police weapons) nor “professionals” (special forces of the host country) could hit anything beyond starting at the feet of a silhouette target at short rang and hoping to hit the silhouette at all.
The bill to pay for hits into the range superstructure that prevented bullets from leaving the range was very significant.
Fully automatic fire has to make sense, for it to have any utility outside of what we could term “Morale Effect”.
If you’re spraying bullets everywhere, which is really about all that’s possible in 9mm in a handgun platform, you’re going to have to be in a situation where a.) you don’t care about collateral damage to anyone, and b.) you’re hoping to scare/intimidate your opponents.
What I know about the Glock 18 is that it was produced after the Rome and Vienna airport terrorist attacks. Apparently, the Austrians doing the after-action review on that decided that the police on the ground were unable to respond effectively to men with assault rifles, and that it took too long to get long arms to the scene and into action. They wanted something that the police could carry, and which would serve to effectively deal with the assault rifle problem.
I’m not going to play Monday-morning quarterback the whole thing, but I’m questioning the premise. They apparently didn’t want to have cops with submachineguns or assault rifles on duty, intimidating people, but… Yeah. I’m seriously questioning the thinking that came up with the G18. In the hands of the average cop likely to be on duty there at the point of contact with a terrorist attack, I rather doubt that they’re going to be that effective with a handgun on full-auto. The Beretta 93R supposedly came out of the same incident, and that had a three-round burst that makes a bit more sense, to my mind.
I’ve never tried it, but I’m told by someone I trust on the matter that a G18 can be relatively effective, within its limitations, but you’re gonna need to spend a lot of range time and ammo getting there and maintaining proficiency, a lot more than the average airport security guy is going to have available. Comment that this gentleman made to me was that if he was given the choice between a flash-bang grenade with a standard pistol and a G18, he’d take the flash-bang combo every time. The problem with the G18 is that while it produces one hell of an effect, in terms of noise and other signature, the bullets tend to go everywhere. It’s a lot like the cut-down versions of the big 7.62 rifles or the cut-down RPD; for certain specific applications, it can do very well indeed, but… The tuition is dear, and the specific circumstances aren’t all that commonly encountered.
Specialists weapon for specialist purposes, in other words. Outside of that? It’s a handgun-equivalent of a flash-bang, more noise and light show than effective weapon.
The only way a “machine pistol” is effective without a natural talent and/or hundreds of rounds of practice is the Astra Model F or HK VP70 system.
First of all, you need a shoulder stock. Your hands are not going to be able to hold it against climb. Newton’s Third Law will not be denied.
Second, you are going to need either a mechanical rate reducer (the Model F method) or a burst control (VP70 method). You either need a fire rate below 400 R/M or three-to-four shot burst at maximum cyclic rate (about 1,200 R/M) to ensure that your rounds go in the desired direction as opposed to being a threat to low-flying aircraft.
Finally, you need a round with low recoil impulse. This pretty much eliminates anything more intense than 9 x 19mm subsonic. In fact, the .32 ACP, as in the Vz61 Skorpion, is probably the most reasonable round, although there are arguments in favor of .380 ACP and the kissing cousins of 9 x 18mm, Ultra and Makarov.
I tend to agree with Col. Cooper, who once opined that “A machine pistol is a good weapon for my enemy to use”. He considered the Star Model M, a 1911 clone in .45 ACP with a “loud switch” on the right rear of the slide to lock the disconnector out, to be usable.
As he put it, “I can always leave it on single-shot unless I want to attract a lot of attention”.
clear ether
eon
“(…)Beretta 93R supposedly came out of the same incident(…)”
Do as you wish, but I will keep believing that said fire-arm was replacement of M1951R see 2nd image from top http://modernfirearms.net/en/handguns/handguns-en/italy-semi-automatic-pistols/beretta-951-eng/ in Beretta offer.
The select-fire version of the M951, known as M951R, had been developed circa 1955 and been in limited production until early 1980s, when it was replaced by Beretta M93R.
Did the Beretta have any barrel vents, other than the porting on the 93r that is visible to make the round more sub-sonic do you know out of intetest?
The 951R usually had a scaled-down TSMG-type compensator screwed on the muzzle.
The 93R had one integral with the barrel.
The major reason for the 93R’s development was simply that with a single-column, eight-round magazine and no burst control, the 951R literally ran empty before the operator could let up on the trigger.
The 93R came closer to being a usable machine pistol than any other attempt, except perhaps the Astra 900 or the Mauser 712, both of which were larger, heavier and bulkier than the 93R.
The Astra and Mauser probably would never have achieved much notice except for their sales in China in the 1920s-1930s, to “warlord” armies that were prohibited from buying actual SMGs.
During WW2, the Mauser “Schnellfeuers” were often issued to Wehrmacht motorcycle dispatch riders due to the impracticality of carrying anything even the size of an MP40 on a motorcycle. No, they never considered the American method of having a TSMG in a scabbard next to the rider’s right knee, borne of U.S. Cavalry and Western cowboy experience sixty years earlier.
clear ether
eon
“They wanted something that the police could carry, and which would serve to effectively deal with the assault rifle problem.” Well in regards the flash-bang, noise and light show part; than as an effective weapon.
Well the Author got like 20 or so of 30 or so on target out of a full burst with the big mag, I have seen a video on one before as well seem to remember the barrel had lots of holes in it; which made sense in regards why it doesn’t seem to rise that much upon firing, because it vents a lot. Couldn’t see holes in this one, but the camera wasn’t that close; fairly sure it has barrel vents though. Utility, er… Not sure maybe try one further away, 25 metres… See if one burst allows at least one to hit, if you pulled it out your holster quick when a target popped up out the blue. Assuming they did not design it for movies, per se. Might be to do with that… Scorpion like, as a pdw type thing; might have been sort of that I.e. 25 metres wack a load out, increase hit probability for untrained folk at said range with a “Pistol” .32 few hits ideally, to also help… Well, with the purpose of firing at someone; Ow! etc. Not sure. Scorpion probably better, cal and layout etc; pretty sure this has a very vented barrel so probably hits like a .32 as oppose 9x19mm. Fun to shoot probably, once or twice… Don’t think I would buy one, if I could. To be honest.
Scenario: Your Conchita Wurst a newly conscripted “Chap” who is in a support role in the Austrian Army; it is possible you may encounter some Russians while delivering ammo, and possibily a song for the troops in WW3… Encumbered having to carry a Gasmask around (Which you dislike wearing as it smudges your makeup) and a handbag containing your make up, lugging around a Steyr Aug would likely just cause you to break a nail and thus distress you beyond what it is reasonable to expect of someone in a World War; so
the Austrian Government issued you a Glock 18… Right… Ok, so! Think… AMBUSH!! RUSSIANS 2 O’Clock! “It’s half ten!” No Conchita over there! Quick the Russians gun jammed, get him!!
There you are, she hit him… Once in the shin & luckly he was arrested by an M.P who happened to be near and accepted his surrender, so there you are the Glock 18 may have it’s uses. Even with a wee stock, like the Scorpion has.
The premise being; she hit him, as oppose being told to actually aim at him properly. “I can’t do that, what if I hit him!” Etc. With the way our Army of Pan-Sexual etc “Diversity” is going, perhaps we should buy some…
I am sure the last video I saw on the Glock 18 showed it with lots of barrel vents; unless that was a movie model, that long ago I have forgot – I can see it making sense to have though, to turn the round into more of a 9x18mm Etc. If it has… Sure it did, have.
WTF did I just read? Helpful hint: first write the satire, THEN slam the fifth of Jim Beam. Trust me, I’m a sometime writer, I am.
Professional eh, Mart. Meh, I am an amateur; not trying to make cash by my decade long “Wtf” on here… I once did a 36 hr marathon stint on an obscure Nazi pistol you know. I found it fascinating personally, but… Wth.
(It had like a lever which went from _ “Under the muzzle” to go sort of / at the front in order to go \ at the back; and delay the slide opening… I drank the whiskey first, unsurprisingly.
Anyway, valid points; pansexuals etc.
Sort of like see saw, the obscure Nazi pistol… Conversly that may actually work in a Glock 18 design, as if you think about it; BANG!!! Lever down “So up at back” slide overcomes said up – BANG!!! Up again to become; overcome again. Know what I mean, quick… BANG!!! (See saw, see saw, see saw, see saw) quick like. Anyway…
A sort of bang rifle see saw… Pistol, actually it is an easier way to think of it like that in full auto; cheers.