In the late 1950s or early 1960s, Eugene Reising experimented with adapting the mechanism of his submachine guns to a locked-breech 7.62mm NATO military pattern rifle. The resulting rifle used an M14 gas piston and a bolt that was fully locked into the top of the receiver (instead of being a delayed blowback like the SMGs). It was assembled into the stock from an H&R .22 caliber M!4 simulator, which was another rifle also designed by Reising.
Ultimately the design was not successful, although I have no specific data on why.
Very interesting post – I was not aware of any such thing, although in retrospect the locked breech of the SMG (while perhaps overkill for the .45 ACP) makes a lot of sense in a full power battle rifle, in the mid 50s. I mean, how many other SMGs could be upgraded to .308?
Many thanks for the unusual and interesting presentation!
CG
“other SMGs could be upgraded to .308”
Does this count: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/british-308-sterling-prototype/
or it is too far from progenitor?
“locked breech of the SMG (while perhaps overkill for the .45 ACP)”
Is Reising SMG locked breech design? I always though it is delayed-blow-back.
“overkill for the .45 ACP”
Query in Russian wikipedia, https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reising_M50_/_M55
described it as nearer to self-loading rifle, with ability to fire full-auto, than to sub-machine gun in that aspect. It is also noted that Reising, despite using non simplest principle was cheaper than Thompson SMG (~$50 vs ~$225 for example, but without specifying Thompson variant). It should be also noted that it was lighter than Thompson sub-machine gun.
7.62x25mm is the best calibre for smgs I think, with a high fire rate. Slower fire rates might be better for 9mm at range in order to hit, at extended smg range. But most smg range is closer, I think. So shred the bugger, guaranteed hit… One or two will do the enemy no good- Lesser trained troops, or, well trained troops die. Then run off and do it again, and so on. The Mp40 wasn’t semi auto so nobody wanted it as a carbine.
Walking fire… Smgs… The enemy fires back, you won’t walk then, particularly if hit. Better spray, duck. Spray etc. 9mm slow rate guns are perhaps ideal on ranges.
You could even close your eyes, and still hit a kraut.
Alot of conscripts are squeamish, and rightly so, obviously.
Meh, war is a numbers game. If you don’t hit, it doesn’t count.
Ze Kaisers War machine was wiped out killing untrained… Well, inexperienced troops, who died in droves clearly, which is unfortunate. But the point is, being Rambo trained in such circumstances meant nothing. Slaughterhouse, and that damaged the German Army in WW1 they’d made a great Army that was eviscerated for half the economic cost.
you have no idea what youre even talking about…the ppsh while ok wasnt te best nor was it close id stick to shoving your head up your ass if i were you as youre not very smart………russia lost as hey had no freedom and over 40 million russians were killed by russians…while all the stuff germany is accused of is allegedat best with little to no proof
“Mp40 wasn’t semi auto”
MP40 has low Rate-Of-Fire (for sub-machine gun of that era), which allowed to make single shots quite easily, despite lack of selector.
Germany lost.
The Ppsh is a great gun. That’s how you win wars, make millions of Ppsh’s.
Correlation does not imply causation
PPSh have some effect on outcome of combat, but notice that was only one model of weapons among hundreds of others.
I know that.
“Some U.S. infantry officers ranked the PPSh as the best combat weapon of the war: while lacking the accuracy of the U.S. M1 Garand and M1 carbine, it provided more firepower at short distances.[19] As infantry Captain (later General) Hal Moore, stated: “on full automatic it sprayed a lot of bullets and most of the killing in Korea was done at very close ranges and it was done quickly – a matter of who responded faster.” That’s an extract from Wikipedia, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSh-41
which I hadn’t even read. Clever aren’t I.
Korean War, was tactic-wise somewhat similar to First World War, as in both several trenches were dig. So, it is not surprise that weapon belonging to class of (let’s call it that) “1st generation” sub-machine guns, that is class created exactly for usage in such environment, was successful.
Crucial here is that: at very close ranges
With introducing of intermediate cartridge and avtomat for firing it, PPSh-like sub-machine guns, not because they fail in their intended role, but because avtomats can do it with similar effectiveness and also allow engaging targets from further distance, thus this is specialized vs general-purpose issue.
Notice that after Second World War PPSh-like don’t attained high-scale production, instead sub-machine gun evolved into smaller (more compact) and lighter weapons.
Well, I think we are missing out on a true gem of Military technology. I’ve fired a Romanian Akm in full auto at 100 metres, from the shoulder and I may have hit the target. But it wasn’t obvious… Aksu 5.45mm was much better admittedly, it was very obvious every round probably hit.
But at range, the 5.45mm isn’t much better than the 5.56mm out of short barrels. So I inclined to think 7.62x39mm is better in semi auto and 7.62x25mm in full.
Which leads me to the conclusion, SKS and Ppsh as oppose Ak, because nobody fires full auto unless they are at close range.
Essentially I’d make L86’s in 7.62x39mm and strip them down a bit. Then make a whole load of Ppsh’s. I am not convinced one gun can do all, it like planes the F35 for example it doesn’t really do either job so well enough to justify it- But it exists because on paper a one size fits all solution is good for politicians writing cheques.
“SKS and Ppsh as oppose Ak”
But then you need two weapons instead of one, taking SKS and PPSh would be more cumbersome that one AK.
Hmmm, suppose… But it’s just so good.
9mm is superior to 7.62×25 in all aspects
the russians never beat the germans without massive assistance…hell in ww1 the russians were defeated
Well, let’s see:
1) The Reising SMG, as I understand it, fires from a closed and locked bolt. But let’s presume that I’m wrong and it is delayed blowback. It is still overkill (in terms of complexity) for a relatively low pressure round like .45 ACP. The evolution of SMGs in that caliber trended towards slam fire weapons with heavy bolts, low rates of fire, and actions that fired from an open bolt. The M3A1, which was used through the 1980s, is a good example.
2) Being cheaper to produce than a Thompson isn’t exactly hard to do, either now or then. None of the Thompson variants were even really delayed blowback, unless you subscribe to belief in the effectiveness of perhaps the ultimate firearms act of faith, the Blish lock.
3) While the Reising deservedly gets some consolation points for being something along the lines of a “bad SMG for battle conditions, but a good design for (say) police work”, it doesn’t change the fact that there were better, cheaper, contemporaneous weapons out there at the time that weren’t as complicated and prone to malfunction in the conditions in which they were actually being used (for them most part battle in the Pacific theater). Most of them also had magazine capacities of more than a lousy 12 rounds as well.
4) If you are going to flatter me by quoting what I write in these posts, I would be grateful if you would do it accurately. My comment “I mean, how many other SMGs could be upgraded to .308?” was intended to be what is known in some circles as a rhetorical question, and my point was that the general principals of the action of the original Reising SMG (closed bolt operation, and either delayed blowback or locked breech, depending on how many hairs we all feel like splitting today) could be applied to a full power battle rifle. I could probably have made my point better by asking (rhetorically) “How many full power battle rifles fired from an open bolt?”
An interesting post.
CG
“Rhetorical question” Er… They are Russian, have you tried reading that Russian Wikipedia link.
Come on Russians admit your Lada like Vaz truck doesn’t have a warp drive and change Google translate accordingly.
They have a better understanding of English, than I Russian, but like… Perhaps there’s chance of misunderstandings.
No, but I will – thanks for pointing it out.
CG
wikipedia….the online source that is not used by intelligent people…russian wikipedia is worse as russia is the land of crime and propaganda and stolen desigs and stolen patents
At 3) according to Modern Firearms
http://modernfirearms.net/smg/usa/reising-m50-m55-e.html
Normal magazines were of capacity 20, when 12 were used for training.
Russian pamphlet from 1942 (Пистолет-пулемет Рейзинга. Памятка по обращению.) says that sub-machine gun is equipped with 6 box magazines, every of capacity 20
The only reason why the miserable 12 round magazine was even developed for the Reising was because the 20 round magazines were even more miserable. This wasn’t a training tool – it was a stopgap response to a 20 round magazine that simply wasn’t reliable in the field (see pics of Navaho code talkers in Bruce Canfiels’s Weapons of WWII). Imagine going into battle with (by the standards of the 30 round Thompson A1 variant) a magazine that starts out almost 2/3 empty. My guess is that you might bother to complain about it.
If you would like to defend the virtues of the Reising as against the Thompson (any variant) or the M3 or M3A1, in combat in a swamp, I invite you to go ahead and do so.
CG
So, if Reising sub-machine gun has so poor reliability why it was used?
Had Eugene Reising behind the scenes influence on people responsible for weapons used?
Uaz even, I refuse to accept to this day it has a Warp drive.
Why haven’t you proved it can defy space and time then? “Is it a secret”
You can tell me, if it is a secret it’s not like Britain’s modem- Gchq, reads about my interactions with former Warsaw pact people is it.
As a private fliping citizen.
Flipping even. “Profanity”
“defy space and time”
If you want alternative look at time-space just assume that world is six-dimensional http://noocosmology.com/article/glamour_and_emptiness_of_our_world.html
Blasphemy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita
Interesting, he he.
“Interesting”
@Pdb:
See also R.L.Bartini, his history of life is also… hmm… complicated. I don’t known about longer description in English language, than query in Wikipedia (Robert Ludvigovich Bartini).
His aeroplane designs pass beyond prototypical stage, but are described in English here (BEWARE: this is incomplete, does not contain all his designs):
http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/bartini/index_e.htm
in my opinion, they might be described as unorthodox
Hmm…
Well it’s an interesting design, if unorthodox.
Is: “(…)His aeroplane designs pass beyond prototypical stage(…)”
should be: “(…)His aeroplane designs did not pass beyond prototypical stage(…)”
IIRC, There was one Thompson prototype in .30-06 made as a potential alternative to the BAR. It required lubrication pads for the cartridges, and in the end mass production of the BAR was able to more or less keep up with requirements.
The Thompason and Reising guns had an advantage in such experiments, in that their bolt heads were sized for .45 ACP, which has roughly the same casehead dimensions as .30-06 and 7.62 x 51mm NATO.
By comparison, 5.56 x 45mm has approximately the same casehead dimensions as 9 x 19mm. Which is why Colt’s 9mm SMG version of the AR-15 family was fairly easy for them to engineer.
cheers
eon
There also existed Thompson Autorifle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_Autorifle
for .30-06 utilizing Blish principle
And also .45 Remington-Thompson cartridge version:
http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/thompson-upchambered
(250 gr bullet @ 1450 fps)
“Reising experimented with adapting the mechanism of his submachine guns to a locked-breech 7.62mm NATO military pattern rifle.”
Interestingly, at similar time, Winchester was working on scaling down WAR (Winchester Automatic Rifle) for new .22 caliber center-fire round and result was called
WINCHESTER LIGHTWEIGHT MILITARY RIFLE CALIBER .224
http://www.replicaplans.com/Firearms%20Manuals/Winchester%20224%20rifle.pdf
Now I am wondering if Reising design, either in “smg” or “rifle” variant could be scaled to size of cartridge used in said Winchester weapon?
.224 as oppose .223 is said lightweight rifle not .556mm then? No. Is it better than 5.56/5.45? Long or short barrel, or any?
Having some way, to link… Weapon “Features” might be an idea for this site. The layout has changed from the previous version, which I can vaguely remember in a blur. But this new layout makes it harder to find weapons previously covered, and even if you could remember the weapon itself you might forget certain aspects which might be found in other weapons. Just thinking it might be an idea to try and link specific features of individual weapons together.
I will contribute financial assistance eventually. I did have a genuine problem, which is now rectified- Just need some spare money. When did I start waffling on this website? Time flies.
Tilty bolt, etc. Up, down, left or right versions.
I am reading your Pdf, I think I’ve seen this rifle on here before unless I am imagining things.
I love those old manuals, I looked at a M2 Browning one, from WW2 very sophisticated pictures without computers, someone must have painted them etc. Pretty fantastic.
“(…)pictures without computers, someone must have painted them etc. Pretty fantastic.”
If you appreciated that, I assume you will also enjoying viewing cut-away of Napier Sabre aircraft engine:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinkemmerer/11675318594/
(click on drawing for full size)
Very spectacular, he he. 🙂 Much appreciated, thanks.
“I’ve seen this rifle on here before”
Are you thinking about entry Winchester .224 E2 manual
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/winchester-224-e2-manual/
?
Probably, it was likely I was drunk.
20″ barrel, below maximum efficiency of 25″ Bullpup it. Anyway I’ll shut up.
“(…)20″ barrel, below maximum efficiency of 25″ (…)”
Please point source which claim that optimal barrel length for .224 Winchester cartridge is 25″.
Also, why to change barrel length if requirement created by Conarc that is caliber .22 centerfire capable of firing a 50 to 55 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity approximately 3300 ft/sec. was satisfied?
No idea. But with scopes, surely we need range. So longer barrels, and the best way to achieve a long barrel in smaller overall length is the bullpub.
Bollocks to modularity, you do that, and adopt Ppshs.
In 7.62x25mm and I’d adopt 7.62x39mm also, personally, out of 25″ barrels.
What we then get is increased Russian casualties over now.
Which is the object of war, war being a bad per se.
No offence, general enemy etc.
On paper… Etc. In papers etc.
Just trying to be honest.
Radio 4 (U.K) did a moving program about Russian women in WW2 well Soviet… So I don’t want to give you a false impression, like we hate you or something. But obviously shit happens.
“It was likely I was drunk “. Yes. Yes it does.
This is refreshing concept and shame it did not materialize. What I like specifically is streamlined and more integral operating rod as opposed to “dog leg” found on M14 (I am also not big fan of M14 bolt camming).
To evaluate amount of locking contact I’d have to see total contact area, but as far as visible bolt drop, it looks fairly pronounced. Overall, this action resembles heavily auto shotguns.
I agree with you about the operating rod. And I can also see that there is less likeliness of mud getting into the receiver area than that on the M14.
I agree.
I think H&R missed a trick by not making this rifle semi-auto and putting it on sale to the public.
In the late 50s/early 60s civilians could not buy M14s, and I doubt many M1s had been released for sale. A civilian who wanted a .30 or 7.62mm semi-auto rifle was pretty much out of luck. This piece might have sold like hot cakes!
H&R actually did just that! The H&R Model 360/361 Ultra Automatic is this very same rifle in a sporting guise, they were meant to compete against the Remington 740 and Winchester 100. Chambered in .243 and .308 they sold in very limited number from 1966-1977 or so, they have a very Weatherby-esque stock and appearance.
Does anyone know the length of this rifle?
I can see that it would be the same as an m14 but I’m not shure.