The first Estonian sniper rifle built on the M14 was the “TP” – a very poorly done model with a lousy scope, worse mount, and unhelpful stock. These were made in 2000, and in 2008 a new iteration came out. This was the TP2, which now used a B&T mount, standard stock (with cheek riser), and excellent Schmidt & Bender PMII scope. The TP2 was still a rifle limited by the basic capabilities of the M14 platform, but it was far more effective than the original TP. It did see combat use with the Estonian forces deployed to NATO missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Today, most of Estonia’s M14 rifles have been sent to Ukraine, and the TP2 has been replaced by the R20L; the 7.62x51mm LMT precision rifles Estonia purchased from the United States.
Semiauto Rifles
Estonian R20L DMR Clone at the Range
Today we are out at the range with a semiauto clone of the Estonian R20L “Rahe” designated marksman’s rifle. These rifles are based on the LMT MARS-H platform, with a few tweaks requested by the […]
Semiauto pistol
Estonian Home Guard Browning High Power
Estonia purchased several batches of early FN High Power pistols in the 1930s. First in 1936 120 were ordered for the police, and then much larger orders followed in 1937. The military bought 5,338 and […]
Bolt Action Rifles
Improving Mosins: The Estonian M1935
When Estonia declared independence from Russia in 1918, it had no formal military. After winning a 2-year War of Independence, the nation needed to set up its own armed forces. The rifles available in Estonia […]
The really interesting interview to be had here would be with the presumably unbiased armorers that had the job of keeping these rifles going… And, accurizing them.
When they brought back the M14 for the US Army/Marines during the GWOT, there was still a modicum of institutional knowledge, residual though it may have been. You had guys who knew the system from civilian marksmanship stuff, and a (very) few small arms technicians who’d been around back at the very end of the M14 era. There were also some few parts hanging around out in the hinterlands of the depots and warehouses…
Inside the US system, the M14 had been gone for over a decade when I started my military career. You still had a very few weapons hanging around, mostly as M21 Sniper rifles, and the Marksmanship Training Units had them. What little personal experience and lore there was belonged to the old-timers, and they’d fall into one of two camps: The M14 was either a total POS, or it was the Greatest Thing Evah™. No in-between opinions; any experience I had with them was strictly civilian-based with the M1A rifles that belonged to friends and acquaintances, and those were universally “Meh”. I’ve a friend that must have spent $20,000.00 over the years trying to build himself a match-winning rifle, and the frustrations he went through were instructive to observe.
Never heard anything good from the guys who got issued those things during the GWOT; all of them wound up leaving it behind and taking out M16A2 or M4 carbines on actual missions. The M14 was reduced to doing things like EOD missions, and I don’t think I met anyone who took one out more than a few times for anything other than “Look Cool” effects.
The perspective of the Estonians would be interesting to hear, if only because they came to the rifle unbiased and without any real axe to grind. I mean, yeah, they got gifted the things, but…? How’d they actually feel about them, and what was their experience keeping them running? I can’t imagine that finding parts for them around the Baltic Sea was a walk in the park… Honestly, I think I’d have said “Thanks, but no thanks… We’d really prefer some of that nice Lake City 7.62X39, and maybe you could talk to the Bulgarians about some Arsenal AK variants for us…?”
There have to be some epic stories involved, about how they kept those things running in the absence of any real logistics base. I mean, wow… The problems we had, with full access to the civilian US market for parts, and whatever was left over in the depots? It was like Indiana Jones and the Lost Temple of 7.62, for a lot of the units deploying with the M14 on their books. One of the outfits at Fort Lewis went down to one of the local gunshows with credit cards in hand, and raped the place and any vendor with even vaguely M14-related goods. They were sending guys up to the Navy bases on scrounging missions, just on rumor that the Navy still had stocks of parts and stuff like magazines…
“(…)running in the absence of any real logistics(…)”
Keep in mind Eesti Kaitsevägi are multiple times smaller in size than U.S. forces AND they intend to use said fire-arm in sniper role, meaning that it would be issued to much lower percent of soldier than general-issue M14. If what they got was more than what they need they might use superfluous examples as source of parts.
“Sent them to Ukraine…”
what was the Kissinger quote about being an enemy is dangerous, being a friend is fatal?
The M14 had its virtues, few though they may appear in retrospect. It is in 7.62mm NATO, a caliber that the Ukrainians could get in quantity from NATO stocks, and it does possess a somewhat longer range envelope than the AK in 7.62X39. This could have been a valuable thing to have on hand, when you’re out looking over the wide fields in between windbreaks.
Again, it would be interesting to hear what the Ukrainian combatants and their supporting armorers thought of the system. You don’t see many pictures of them from the front line, but what that might mean? No idea.
I would not want to go out trench-clearing with an M14, but then again, I wouldn’t want to be trying to hold a trench line with good sight lines with an AK, either.
Horses for courses.
“(…)don’t see many pictures(…)”
TAB did analysis of known pictorial material
M14 https://armourersbench.com/2022/06/12/m14s-in-ukraine/
Mk14 EBR https://armourersbench.com/2024/11/03/mk14-ebrs-in-ukraine/
does also include also upgrade M14 similar in external appearance to Mk14 EBR but strictly speaking not being them.
“(…)hold a trench line with good sight(…)”
If you are okay with using eclectic* weapon system for that purpose AND you would enjoy NOT exposing your helmet to flying debris then use Droid TW 12.7 https://devdroid.tech/en/catalog/droid-tw
* I hope this is apt moniker for composition of 1930s fire-arm with 2020s robotics
on a more serious note, is there any indication of internal re -working for the sniper / DMR role?
For example, adjustment or epoxy bedding at those over worked and minimal sized key bearing points for the receiver and barrel?
and
adjustments to the tension that the fire control clamps the receiver down with?
also, was there any selected ammunition used, or was it simply whatever ball ammunition the machine guns were receiving?
The overall “systems related” stuff is what’s interesting to me, in a lot of these cases.
It’s a lot like the Gahendra vs. Martini question: Did the Nepalese experience lesser or greater issues keeping the Gahendras going vice the Martini rifles in Indian service? Were the Martinis better understood, once they’d gone out into the second- and third-line usages?
The guns themselves are always at least a little interesting; oftentimes, the really engrossing stuff is out in the usually ignored areas, like maintenance and supportability, along with training and usage.
I suspect that at least a part of why the Kalashnikov has been so damn successful everywhere its gone comes down to the weapon itself being so simple and requiring so little in the way of support. Granted, things like the FAL, the G3, and the M16 manage to get away with a lot in some areas of the world, but… I think the AK series is probably the pennant-winner for “ease of systemic use” across the board.
I could be wrong, and I’d love to see the data across the board. I fear nobody has really kept it, though… Here in the US, I doubt you could actually put numbers to the total “systemic cost” for the M16 and its derivatives. People simply don’t think in those terms; weapons are objects of romance, regarded with superstitious reverence regardless of whether or not they deserve it.
I shot one in 7.62mm full auto and couldn’t hit a barn door. With a pistol grip. Albeit a wobbly one “Not surprised it was wobbly with the immense unpleasant nature of it juddering.” Osama bin Ladens 5.45mm one, I had a big mag also, was ace conversely. So in the orignal cal, no I think the Soviets made a mistake there; ppsh… Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbg… Proved – Dead Germans. Anyone could do it, kids etc.
I have said this before along with an SLR… And being British. Had to go prone to hit owt. Compared to an SA80 stood up I thought, crikey. So, perhaps you get used to it. But I dispute that, that was truly a Romanian fireball; I tried to hold it… But it just went Haywire.
So no, 5.45mm Better for that I think.
The Romanian wasn’t “Straight off the shelf, granted.” But, no… I doubt anyone would have… When the Ppsh killed so many. Budgets eh “Modular” cough.
“(…)Romanian fireball(…)”
What is this?
A Romanian AKM is it with the front grip, I honestly can’t remember if it had a folding stock; it did have “A Stock” maybe an already extended folding one, and I didn’t really notice at the time because I wasn’t aware they could have folding stocks. Anyway it wasn’t very good in full auto, what gun is? Well that wasn’t, and it is a fact that.
Seagulls would be the only thing that would worry. With a Ppsh you could have dropped three Germans in the legs, rolled over threw a grenade at them in said wounded state; and stole their rations “Incorparating a brief Christian Funeral right, optional; but it is nice to be nice.”
A gun Daweo, with which; folk can hit other folk with, more often. Must be a better gun, assuming as with .22lr up in firearms, no gun will do anyone being shot by it; any good.
M1 Garand & M1/2 full auto .30, best guns overall… Aye, the Garand is prior to the SLR and as I know now (Not quite at the time; Gat gun? A Gun.) that is 7.62x63mm… Ace that. Sooo… Anyway, different systems/weight, bias even thinking the Yank gun was a hero who knows. SLR though I thought, eeew… Bang. With practice maybe… Honest, so…
Stood up SLR I went ewww… Kneeled, went eww… Prone ew… Hit. Suppose you get used to it; Garand though, BANG! Loved it! Stood up, BANG! BANG! BANG! that much, so maybe something in it. Certainly important with troops that, may not get lots of training. Like a Ppsh, hit ten barn doors!! Hit, hit, hit! The point.
Should try that actually, talking about M14’s… Lets try the same folk with Garands. If positive, results; Knock out Garands, do what works.
Never fired a M14 personally, sorry. I’d like one of those Soccom ones; funnily enough I thought when I saw that, bet that would be be even more “Sexy” as a Garand. So might just be me, with a “Sexual” love of WW2 guns for some reason. But if your in America, and have both… Try it! Garand vs M14 (DID YOU HIT A BARN DOOR PRIVATE PYE!?) Yes, send them to Ukraine. “Be advised I think you should make peace with Russia mind; given you lost all your troops on our General Melchitts offensive advice.” But owt you can do, if they like Garands; I do, why not.
“(…)Soccom(…)”
What is this? Is this intentional corrupted way to write SOCOM in order to show disdain or something totally else?
I suppose the U.S had… Er, well lots of ex M1 Garand shooters using M14’s thinking about it. Did they prefer the Garand? If so, crank out some 30-06’s… Logistics! Well, how about folk using it being able to hit barn doors.
Favourable bias… If it is, that… As oppose the cartridge/rifle. Hey! Which idiot would ignore that “They can hit barn doors!” Be highly handy that, if folks “Think” they can shoot better with a Garand, even if the “Science” is lacking. Hit those barn doors! You, hit the same door but lower!! See we are onto something.
You! Hit the barn door as low as him but more to left… YESSS!! These are the most impressive results since we used Gataling Guns at Ulundi. “Do a wee jig on the spot.”
“(…)Gataling Guns(…)”
What is this?
Will be a thing that, 5.56mm with the Taliban outranging folk… Other “folk” must have noticed.
WE CAN FIGHT THE RUSSIANS AND NOT ALL DIE* *= As easy, as usual. (Can I sellotape a scope to my Garand?) Of course you can new British recruit, here’s some tape – You have a scope? Crack on, you’ll be Vasily Zaitsev in a week.
Hmmm… I have gone on abit, but I do have a question? And that is. Was the adoption of 7.62 Nato about logistics, because 30-06 was a bigger case so weighed more etc. And in use, was only fit for bolt action sniper rifles really & gmpgs… Because maybe it kicked more than 7.62x63mm for whatever reason? I don’t know, hence my question.
Pressure or something… The case.
If so, feck “Logistics” on this matter, so to speak; I have “Revolutionary concept” lets make guns, the folk using them can hit barn doors with. Aye, and now. Not be “Out gunned” by the Taliban. Progress eh. Tell you another good thing about an M1 Garand, you could full baseball bat a German with that & probably play baseball at a push. I don’t know, as I am from England and we don’t play baseball much. I would have liked one as a rounders bat at school mind; throw that again mofo.
“(…)gmpgs(…)”
What is this?
Typing while drunk, I suppose
Nope, watched a few Youtube videos and I am sticking to my point; Steyr scout rifle style scope… Big help & volley fire @ range, baseball bat/bayonet. Whats not to like. “Make some bigger pallets” want to bring in the Knout for Labour relations.
https://youtu.be/MxURKEwUvEw?si=TzKTmb9xIiwaUEe-
Fiddlesticks.
None have mentioned Italy’s BM 59 .Garand base in 7.62 [ 308 ] with 20 rd detachable mag , best of both M14 and Garand .
A gun on my wish list .