Hyman Lehman was a gunsmith in Texas who made a variant of firearms for some of the most notorious gangsters of the 1930s. One of his specialties was to take the Winchester Model 1907 Self-Loader and cut the barrel down, attach a Cutt’s Compensator, and a Thompson gun vertical front grip on a replacement metal handguard. Dillinger’s friend and compatriot Homer Van Meter was particularly fond of this sort of rifle.
When Dillinger was arrested in Tucson in January 1934, two of these rifles were among the guns taken from him. One was one display at the Tucson PD headquarters for many years, although it appears to have been taken down not long ago.
Incidentally, I would love to get a look at one or both of those examples – especially to see if they are actually converted to fully automatic. I was unable to get any response form inquires to the Tucson Police while filming this video, but if anyone from the department happens to see this video and can arrange something, please reach out to me at admin@!forgottenweapons.com ! A followup video on an original example would be excellent.
Anyway, a shop called Bull Creek Arms in Idaho produced a short run of 20 reproduction Lebman-style 1907s about 15 years ago and that is what we are looking at today. For more information on the original Winchester 1907SL, including its use in World War One, I suggest the C&Rsenal video on the subject:
“(…)Cutts Compensator(…)tested by the US Army at Springfield
on the Springfield 1903(…)Lebman found them, bought the compensators and mounted them on these 1907(…)”
Wait. Springfield 1903 is using 7,62×63 cartridge, whilst Model 1907 is using 8,9x35SR cartridge. Latter use bullet with bigger diameter, so how it could be used with muzzle device expecting smaller diameter?
“(…)push that back and it cycles the bolt back(…)”
Untypical way of cocking was repeated in Russian PP-90M1 https://modernfirearms.net/en/submachine-guns/russia-submachine-guns/pp-90m1-eng/
“(…)we presume that Lebman either used machined aluminium(…)”
That is material which does like to transfer heat. Thermal conductivity from
https://www.engineersedge.com/properties_of_metals.htm
– aluminum 136
– steel mild 26.0…37.5
Which raise question if it would not became dangerously hot after using full-auto, especially considering that original barrel certainly was NOT designed for such mode of fire.
“(…)arrested in Tucson in January 1934(…)”
The Arizona Daily Star https://tucson.com/jan-26-1934-john-dillinger-captured-in-tucson/article_db900262-3c8e-11ea-8a50-bf1a214893b9.html claims that
(…)In the North Second avenue address were found two Thompson sub-machine guns, one, of the regulation, 45 calibre and one of the new “tank gun” models, chambered for the superior powerful 351 calibre rifle bullet.
In addition there were two of the latest type steel and velvet bullet-proof vests and many hundred rounds of ammunition. Two handguns were also taken(…)
Which lead me to wonder if it was actual Thompson chambered in .351 (only prototypes were made, so far I know) or it is 1930s U.S. press language for denoting Winchster Model 1907 with attached Thompson front grip?
No. The guns they seized have all been documented. There were three Model 1921AC Thompsons, one Model 1928AC Thompson, two of the mentioned Winchester conversions (the so-called “tank guns”), a bunch of lever-action rifles, and a number of handguns.
It is normally safe to expect that reporters know very little to nothing about firearms. Clearly, this was as true in the 1930s as it is now.
“(…)The first was the Model 1905, the second
was the 1907, the third was the 1910.(…)”
It is so, if you only count central-fire one. Model 1905 was itself developed from Model 1903 https://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/181311063062/winchesters-self-loading-rifles-in-the-early which used .22 rim-fire cartridge, which is NOT .22 Long Rifle. It must be quite popular as it was modernized in 1933 into Model 63, which used .22 Long Rifle and Model 63 production ended in late 1950s.
My department auctioned off our last five 1907s and about 20 M1 carbines back in 2005 for $150 apiece. We kept the Thompsons. The Motor Bandit era yielded some awesome gun sales on both sides of the law.
I wrote a long and extensively sourced article in ARMAX about these things, called “American ‘Gangster Gats’: Illicit Automatic Conversions of the Winchester Model 07 Self-loading Rifle in the 1930s” (ARMAX Vol. VIII No. 2) (https://www.armaxjournal.org/doi/armax41181), in which I explain the history and details about these conversions. For starters, it is unlikely that Hyman Lebman had anything to do with them (detailed explanation in the article). I also discuss many of the internet myths you mention here.
– It is pretty certain that all of the four known conversions (not just the two seized in Tucson) were full-automatic. Again, I explain why in the article.
– The first reason you give why they should not be full-automatic is actually invalid because these were no used with the 10-rounders you depict, but with artisan-made 20-round magazines. I discuss these at length in the article, complete with photos from the 1930s AND from an existing sample now in the hands of an advanced collector.
– I am fairly certain that the handguards were made of aluminium, because that was the material used by holster-makers of the day to produce the moulds for the leather. Many gunsmiths who were also holstermakers, like Lebman incidently, were thus proficient in working with aluminium.
– Lebman was convicted under the 1933 Texas Act “Making It an Offense to Possess or Use Machine Guns”, which outlawed making a machine gun. However, that was in connection with an Auto-Ordnance Model 1927AC Thompson that was found converted in his store in 1934.
– Homer van Meter very likely has never fired one of these conversions. The two in Tucson were seized before van Meter joined the Dillinger-Nelson Gang (at least as far as we know). The weapon seized on 31 March 1934 from his car was an ordinary Winchester Model 07, as was the one he used on 30 June 1934 to murder Patrolman Howard Wagner in South Bend.
A dissent: The 1910 Winchester is anything but “a brutal rifle to shoot”. Mine is very easy on the shoulder and shoots well within 100 – 150 yards. What is brutal is using the very small operating rod to charge the weapon, and loading the 4-shot magazines.