If you had to pick one, would you take an early Beretta 38A (with bayonet), or a Finnish kp/31 Suomi? Both have semiauto selectors, although the Beretta’s its easier to use. The Suomi has a higher rate of fire and larger magazine capacity, but is slower to use. Both have roughly equivalent sights and are very controllable. The Suomi is heavier, but the Beretta is longer. So which would you take?
Commentary
Dr. Jackson Crawford’s Thoughts on Finnish Brutality 2022
I am very happy to have had the chance to introduce my friend Dr. Jackson Crawford to Brutality matches this year, at Finnish Brutality 2022. I thought we should take a few minutes to sit […]
Book review
Book Review: La Régia Fabbrica d’Armi di Terni
This is no ordinary firearms reference book. This is a 900-page, nearly 12 pound tome in Italian. And not justify Italian; hand-written cursive Italian. With a substantial number of hand-painted illustrations. It is about the […]
Submachine Guns
Suomi m/31 – Finland’s Excellent Submachine Gun
RIA’s catalog page for this SMG (transferrable) Designed by Aimo Lahti, the Suomi m/31 submachine gun is in my opinion one of the standout submachine guns of the World War Two era. Despite its hefty […]
I owned a Beretta 1938 A. It was a joy to shoot. The beretta all day long.
Have only fired the KP/31 during my service in the FDF so my answer will be of course the sweet KP/31 Suomi
“(…)fired the KP/31 during my service(…)”
In conjunction with Koskinen magazine (as shown in video) or with box magazine?
Only with the drum mag, not fun to load. We were trained to shot short aimed bursts at longer distance targets and longer bursts at close targets.
Difficult to judge, really. I do have both, so I fortunately don’t have to choose, but that would be a tough one there, if I have to. Which one for combat? That depends. If I’m to be a footsoldier, then Beretta hands down. It’s lighter a kilo to start with. Then the drum might be nice, but it’s another 1 kilo dead weight to carry – there, and BACK. Two kilos if loaded. And loading the Koskinen drum is a NIGHTMARE (if you don’t have a plastic loading tray which I unfortunately do not have). But there is a simple way around it – because every Suomi takes 36rd drums for Carl Gustaf m/45, and that now beats the Beretta hands down, as long as you are motor-transported, that is. The wedge-sectioned 36-rounders are what dreams are made of. Lightning fast and easy to load with the Swedish 36rd stripper clips and loader (after some training I went down to ca. 4 sec per a 36 rd mag), and the best thing: compared to a drum, two sticks hold 72 rds vs one drum of 71, they’re flat, they’re narrow, and they are (almost) featherweight: 3 empty sticks weight equals one empty drum weight. You just stick them from underneath, like Beretta stick. You can tuck them into Italian Samurai assault vest and then you have 7 back + 5 front sticks in the pockets plus one in the gun, 14 x 36 rds = over 500 rds on you, and nothing of it tugs at your belt and suspenders, you can crawl with it, have 5 pockets for frags, and an (almost) flak jacket, protecting your back and chest.
Exchangeable barrels of the Suomi give you nothing, except at cleaning – it is easier to clean a Suomi bbl because you can simply take it away. Bayo in Beretta? Just choose your Suomi wisely: a Swiss Suomi Mp 43/44 by Hispano Suiza takes a standard K31 bayonet, no problemo. Want a lighter, more handy Suomi? Take a Swedish Kpist m/37-39 – only a 250 (vs 320) mm bbl and turned-down receiver, 1 kilo lighter AND it takes the Swedish 36-rounders. Choosing between a Swedish Suomi and the MAB 38A would be a no-brainer: it’s Swedish Suomi hands down. Better magazines, shorter more handy format, same empty weight, but still bulletproof manufacturing with inside receiver honed, so that you don’t have to put oil into it (because at -30 deg Scandinavian winter even gunoil freezes over). Easier sighting, too – three hooded flip-over notches beat the living daylights out of the Beretta’s or Finnish Suomi’s bare and bender-prone tangent sight. So, Suomi vs Beretta for combat, if no periodic limitations: Suomi, but Swedish one, with m/45 36-rd magazines and Italian assault vest. With periodic limitation (WW2 stuff only): then Beretta MAB 38A or better the Tipo 1, the 10-cannelured bull-barrelled predecessor of the sheet-metal shitty pencil-barrelled MP Beretta 38/42. AND a Samurai vest, of course.
Now as to the chances for a legit war bring-back Suomi. First, Finland was an Axis power, not an Allied or neutral country. Yes, we all know why (Winter War), and that they were no Nazis, but still, they supplied Suomis to the III Reich and you see many Waffen-SS legit photos taken by the SS-PK, of SS official photocorrespondents showing Germans with Suomis, the most famous one being taken in Warsaw 1943 and shown in the Stroop Report of supressing the Jewish Ghetto uprising. At one moment there are as many as two Suomis in one frame, wielded by the bodyguards of the SS-Oberfuhrer Jurgen Stroop (interesting SMG photo, btw, as it also shows – in the same frame – two MP 41s and an MP 28). As many as 1500 Suomis were exported to Germany, so there was a chance to find one even in the West (or Greece for that matter, as Stroop and his merry band of pranksters moved from Warsaw to Athens in October 1943). So, Mr Keene – there were after all, the German-stamped Suomis (and these were moreover stamped with SS-Wa#). IMHO German stamps do not matter at all and frankly I do not understand the fascination with them, but well – being Polish as I am, I’m not perticularly keen on neither Jerrys, nor Ivans anyway, so call me biased 🙂
Correction: 36-rd STICK, not drum!
I have neither, but a big advantage of the MAB 38A, to me, seems to be a place to put your forward hand on. Every time I see someone firing a Kp31, they seem like they don’t know what to grab.
“(…)don’t know what to grab.”
In Denmark work was done to prevent that which resulted in well… ball at stick, see photo at https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Lettet_Fors%C3%B8gs
I will say that the Sten Mk.II left me with this sense too: The barrel is short, and the muzzle nut is also kind of short, and proximate to the large ejection port with that open bolt running. The bolt handle reciprocates and is running back and forth along the right side. In my case, I grasped the trigger housing cover. The Argentine copy of the Sten put a wood handle there. The French Gnome et Rhône R5 copy added a wood vertical fore grip.
Not by chance people naturally tended to grab the Sten by the magazine, that’s a big “no”.
I have the Swedish Kpist m/37-39 and it does not take the Swedish K magazine. My understanding is that the Suomi’s were milled to take those magazines at a later date. Mine will definitely NOT take the Swedisk K mag. Yes to drums and coffin mags – I wish the Swedish K mags fit, but there is no way I’m altering my 37-39.
I have that and the 38/42, and 38/42 much easier to control. Shorter barrel on 37-39 may have some effect on recoil, its definitely not as easy to shoot. Still they are wonderful firearms.
According to https://modernfirearms.net/en/submachine-guns/finland-submachine-guns/suomi-m31-eng/ In mid-1950s Finnish army also adopted 36-round magazine, designed in Sweden for M/45 Carl Gustaf submachine gun, and Suomi submachine guns were slightly modified to accept those magazines.
I would take the longer Beretta I think.
Tell you what we do need; a lightweight 7.62mm Nato “Equivalent” machine gun (Chain guns; no crew but heavy) to mount on drones. How about: .375 Ruger (Parent case) 13.5 mm base diameter then like .50 Gi give it rebated 12.2 mm rim, then necked down to 8.8 mm & length 51.2 mm; so .308’ish. Api ignition via rebated rim, in-conjuction with electronically actuated cocking mechanism & gas delay (Gas delay with Api, think equillium’ish in regards operating system) works potentially thus… The bolt carrier is unusual it resembles an expanding trellis.
/\
\/ The upper upside down V being the front, the V being the rear; made up of 4 over lapping plates I.e. / lower & \ is placed on top, same upside down, trellis’ish see; the middle of the top ^ and lower v are pinned together ending at the upper and lower with rollers “The pins rotate within the plates” there is on the top of the upper ^ a further set of two plates arranged in the same way but at a more inclined angle these are pinned beneath said rollers via a washer to equalise the height on one side “Trellis thing” the apex of these plates terminate in a gas piston (Normal type) sits; pinned above/below. Aye. Following roughly? Ok. Sooo… Between the lower trellis sits a rod; now! There is a bolt face, yes; it sits in a similar manner to the piston pinned between front apex of the lower/upper ^ “Think about it, pause.” Running though this bolt face is a firing pin, a rod ending in said pin “forward aye” this rod runs to a similar piece to the rear (Resembles the “bolt face piece” but at the back) Around said rod runs a spring. And this… Be in two or so parts this; I have mentioned the trellis mech before, but it had some potential issues – Which I think I have solved with Api via “Equilibrium’ish’ness.” I think it is quite good in regards it’s stated aim; drone .308; bare with…
“(…)Api ignition via rebated rim(…)”
If you already decided to use atypical ammunition, then utilize that fully and make said fire-arm blow-back. Observe that Oerlikon SSG 36 https://forum.enlisted.net/en/t/oerlikon-ssg-32-ssg-36-anti-tank-rifle/147669 has caliber of 20 mm, yet used blow-back operation, therefore achieving 7.62mm Nato “Equivalent” should be feasible.
Problem with Oerlikon API is that it requires a shoulderless, or almost shoulderless, case, so a 8mm cartridge should be almost cylindrical, and so overly long to have an acceptable ballistic.
In SMGs a sort of API is obtained by making the chamber a little shorter than the cartridge, That way the bolt is still advancing (compressing the case) when the fired brass starts recoiling. However it works exclusively with fixed firing pins.
There are limits to how much gas delay can lighten the bolt. The gas delay system of the Horn StG, probably the most efficient ever, couldn’t even halve the weight of the bolt in respect to a pure blowback weapon (to fire a 8mm Kurz with pure blowback requires a 1.4/1.5 kg bolt, the Horn SgT had a 0.8kg bolt). That’s why gas delay is used practically only in pistols (many 9mm full size pistols already have slides heavy enough to work as pure blowback. The delay is mostly needed for comfort, and to not have the slide impact with too much energy with the frame) Roller/lever delay manages to reduce the bolt assembly weight to about 1/3.
“(…)requires a shoulderless, or almost shoulderless(…)”
14-Shi https://web.archive.org/web/20220103100849/https://www.quarryhs.co.uk/14mmO.pdf shows that this might be overcome.
“(…)8mm cartridge should be almost cylindrical, and so overly long(…)”
Calculator time! Let say we want cylinder equivalent of .308 Winchester cartridge https://backfire.tv/case-capacity-chart/ does gives capacity as 0.235851 cubic inch, area of circle with diameter of .308 is 0.0745, dividing volume shown earlier yields height of 3.1658 which finally gives 80,41 mm. Case itself would be longer than due to bottom part.
“(…) drone .308(…)”
Further research should be done to determine if existing 7,62×51 mm could be mated with said platforms, if it so, there is little incentive to develop fire-arms of similar ballistic, but using not compatible ammunition.
No, there is; drones, not being powerfull enough “wee droney’drones” for defilade, enfilade. Hey… If you was a Terminator of the future out to give your gut bacteria eternal life via robot, thus cutting down on genetics. You’d want a lightweight 7.62x51mm drone gun.
And if that is not what “Terminators” are about I.e. Ones gut bacteria “The real life on earth minus it’s proxies as a parasite.” I will be amazed, sorry Jesus.
Realistically, the “drone gun” should be in 5.7 FN, blowback system, recoiling towards the centre of gravity of the drone, and with the recoil action long enough to not have the bolt impacting on the rear of the frame.
Beretta but heck, I’d feel eminently well armed with either… tell ya what, I’ll leave the Beretta 1938 moschetto and Kp/31 to all y’all and opt for the shorter-barrel husqvarna 1939…
I kinda want to Chang my answer to “what Leszek said” I think?
One minor quibble: Germany and the USSR were allied in Dec. 1939 during the Finnish-Soviet “”Winter War.” Finland allied with Germany in 1941.
Didn’t Poland have some Suomi kp/31s prewar?
That’s a fairly difficult choice, but I’d settle for the Beretta.
Although my personal preference in that “generation” of SMGs would be more along the lines of the Erma EMP, the Bergmann MP28/II, or the British copy of the latter, the Lanchester.
All about the same weight as the Beretta, all firing the same 9 x 19mm cartridge, and all having that handy horizontally-mounted magazine that (a) allows you to get lower when under fire and (b) makes fast magazine changes a lot easier.
If you asked me to choose between those three, I’d have to opt for the Erma, which I consider the best of the bunch. As Stephen Hunter once said, it’s pretty much the Mercedes-Benz of SMGs of that era.
And no, I don’t consider the Thompson necessarily superior to any of them. Although if it (1) fired from a closed bolt on single-shot like the FG42 and (2) used a more sensible cartridge for its weight like the .351 WSL (or better yet the .351-based 8 x 35 Ribeyrolle), it would be a strong contender for the title of “first serious attempt at an assault rifle”.
clear ether
eon
@eon: Well, as I’m sure you know, the San Antonio TX saddle-maker and gunsmith Hyman Lebman, operating from his little shop at 111 S. Flores St. built a select-fire .351 SL Winchester Model 1907 rifle with a Thompson vertical front foregrip, cut back and re-crowned the barrel to just 16-in. and added one of those trendy-at-the-time Cutts compensators and 20-round magazines. Blowback operation from a closed bolt. So the aforementioned proto-assault rifle did exist, or could be built to the end-user’s requirements.
Frank Hamer of the Texas Rangers had a Remington Model 8 in .35 Rem. with a 25-rd. magazine when he ambushed Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker in 1934. Many of his fellow bushwhackers had Remington Model 11 12-ga. shotguns loaded with 00 buck and .30-06 BARs…
The interesting thing about that bushwhack is that it was over for all practical purposes in one and one-half seconds. Because the one deputy with a Winchester 92 .44-40 lever-action started it by shooting Barrow in the forehead, then racked the lever, switched targets, and accorded Parker the same treatment.
PM showed that both of them died instantly from those two shots.
Hamer & Co. riddling the Ford with bullets was more “buck fever” than anything else.
BTW, Hamer’s modified Remington was a standard catalog item from the Police Equipment Co. in St. Louis. That pattern was mostly used by bank armored car guards, plus prison tower guards.
cheers
eon
Thanks for the info. I’ve seen the grisly after-action photos. I couldn’t really differentiate all of the different holes in the bodies, frankly. I once saw a Model 1907 Winchester self-loading rifle for sale in Houston, TX. It has a bayonet lug for the old Krag-Jørgensen bayonet, and had been a prison tower guard’s rifle. So those were a thing too, in addition to the Remingtons. The Winchester 1907 was mighty popular in law-enforcement circles, and it was the weapon used by the old cavalry sergeant turned school teacher Manoel Buiça in the Feb. 1908 Lisbon regicide.
Re: Bonnie & Clyde demise, not one bullet penetrated the body of the car, all the damage was to the glass (they made cars better then). Several days later the local Ford salesman climbed in, pushed the starter button, and drove the car to auction. I am told that the development of both the S&W .38/44 and the .38 Colt Super was launched in response to police agencies seeking a non-rifle firearm that would penetrate car bodies.
@LDC. Ford made one heck of a V8 engine, ’tis true… On the other hand, it would seem the emphasis was on shooting the driver and passenger, not the motor:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bonnie_Clyde_Car.jpg
I believe it is still at a museum in Louisiana… I’d think the .30-06 bullets and quite a few of the 00 buck pellets penetrated the doors and windows.
The bodies were rather mangled. The car was found to contain
3x Browning Automatic Rifles .30-06 with hundreds of magazines stolen from Texas National Guard armories
Bonnie’s favoire 20-gauge Remington Model 11 Semi-Auto sawed-off “whipit” shotgun
In Clyde Barrow’s hands, a 10-gauge Winchester Model 1901 lever-action, sawed-off shotgun
a 32-caliber M1903 Colt automatic pistol
a .38 Colt revolver
a .25 acp vest-pocket Colt automatic pistol
a .45-caliber Colt M1909 revolver
7 x .45 ACP Colt M1911 automatic pistols, again, mostly from National Guard armories.
There was also the “Cuban Winchester” mod carried out in FL in 1956, very similar to the Lebman mod. Those showed up in the hands of William Morgan’s mercenaries in Cuba in 1956-57.
https://strikehold.net/2022/06/10/the-m1907-cuban-winchester/
They were apparently modified to take cartridges like .45 ACP and .30 USC that were more easily obtainable than .351 WSL.
clear ether
eon
You are right about the head shots. But contrary to LDC below a number of bullets did penetrate the car. Both of the dead had leg and trunk wounds. See the coroner’s report at http://www.texashideout.com
Dear Mr. T: Couldn’t make the link work but I will accept the correction. Though as best I can find, the car remained driveable — the original owner recovered it from the authorities and drove it home, blood, body bits, holes and all.
Or the Colt 1923 Thompson???Rechambered in .45 Colt/Remington and pushing a 230 gr. bullet 1450 fps! I’ve held two of the three in private hands, (only seven were made).
Beretta, all day long. Lovely SMG.
I seem to recall that back a while ago, Mr. M’Collum was quite taken with the ZK-383, no?
I do think the Vollmer-designed EMP (Erma Maschine Pistole) 9mm would be mighty nice. For gen. 2 and 3 submachine guns, I’d like to try firing the Australian Owen and F1 sometime…
Because having nazi shit is so cool. Good Christ….
I seem to recall that the Beretta moschetto 1938 was used by Italian antifascist partisans and the allied Italian Esercito Cobelligerante Italiano too…? Or did you have a point to make of some kind?
Beretta M38s and the shorter-barrelled M38A’s showed up pretty much all over the North African/Italian/Balkan campaign areas, used by pretty much everybody. The SS had a lot, simply because by 1943 with Allied bombing “adversely affecting” German war production, there weren’t enough MP40s, etc., to go around.
The M38 actually showed up in one episode of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea (1964-68), “Deadly Creature Below” (2nd season), in which a pair of convicts escaping from an island prison were picked up by the Seaview , claiming to be shipwrecked sailors off a merchie. (They must have been pretty good liars to fool old salts like Nelson, Crane and Sharkey.)
When they wanted to get off the boat, they broke into the arms room, swiped an M38 from the sterile arms locker, and proceeded to use it. Since Seaview often did special operations missions that needed to be “deniable”, they would logically have small arms aboard that could not be traced to the U.S. military.
cheers
eon
Always with the negative waves Moriarty always with the negative waves.
I saw some dogs barking, told them, “Nice Donald Sutherland impression.” They wagged their tails in agreement.
I cannot understand how the militaries worldwide switched from accurate, controllable submachine guns with proper stocks to all kinds finicky designs with wobbly folding stocks, no cheek weld and horrendous triggers?
Thank the cults of “air mobility” and “infantry fighting vehicles”.
Folding stocks really began with paratroops, who it was perceived needed a weapon with short overall length that could be carried on the parachute harness. As Edwin Tunis said, the idea was to be able to land shooting instead of waiting for the personal weapons to come down on the next elevator. Full-length rifles, or even “short rifles” or carbines tended to get jammed into parts of the trooper’s anatomy on landing, notably armpits.
Carrying the rifle crossways on the harness above and behind the reserve ‘chute was impractical due to the narrow width of the “jump doors” on most transports, such as the C-47 and Ju-52/3M.
One result of this was the M1A1 Carbine;
https://i-enlisted.cdn.gaijin.net/original/3X/f/d/fdd80fbda3e8f8f291b49e167a3390408ecedb17.jpeg
Another was the one-off Sten MK IV;
https://modernfirearms.net/userfiles/images/smg/smg27/sten_mkIV.jpg
Either one of which could be carried across the chest and still get out the door.
The Japanese didn’t go that far. They just sawed the stock off the Arisaka Type 1 carbine and hinged it like a barn door;
https://images.bluebookofgunvalues.com/images/subscription/Gun/JapaneseMilitaryRiflesBATERASeriesType1ParatrooperCarbineIH20.jpg
In the end, the German MP38/40 SMG was what everybody decided was the best solution. An underfolding stock of one type or another.
This carried through to rifle design in the 1950s and 1960s, because now troops (“airborne” or otherwise) had to get into and out of first helicopters (“air mobility” again) and then Armored Personnel Carriers (APCs), that “evolved” into “Infantry Fighting Vehicles” (IFVs). The result were such things as the retracting stock on the AR, side-folding stocks on the FAL, telescoping stocks on all things H&K, and the reprehensible MP40-style stock on AK type rifles, not to mention the whole “bullpup” silly season.
What pretty much all such stocks have in common is being uncomfortable and often flimsy. One exception to the “flimsy” is the stock of the Sterling SMG, which while about as comfortable as cheeking a bridge girder at least doesn’t fold up at the wrong moment.
The MP40-style stock on AKs is particularly egregious, being both weak and so roughly made it can file a groove in your face in recoil. (I am the not-so-proud owner of a Heidelberg-esque “souvenir” of one of those on my right cheek. Fortunately, you have to look close to notice it.)
There really is not a good solution to this problem. Although it may be disappearing of its own accord in the near future, as drones make “vertical envelopment” by helicopter assault unacceptably costly to the assaulting side, and more advanced and easily-portable ATGWs make moving the infantry up in IFVs equally likely to result in unacceptable casualties even before the PBI can unass the vehicle and get down to business.
clear ether
eon
Very simple reason: cost and resources.
The less resources used and simpler construction the cheaper the price per unit gets and time saved per gun produced.
The simpler guns also are in general lighter and smaller than the well manufactured pre war models.
Don’t know.
A simple wooden stock, like that of the Volkssturmgewehr, is not really harder to mass-produce than the welded stock of the Sten.
They saved the wood for rifles. Like using steel case .45 acp ammo to save the brass for more powerful ammo. (Most WW2 USA .45 ammo was steel case).
You don’t need a great wood for the stock of a SMG. You can made it of softwood.
Some steel case .45 did get overseas, but it was mostly restricted to use in the zone of the interior.
I will say this. When a nation is at war and time and resources are at a premium, the engineers will run the numbers. In WW2 the bulk of 2nd generation subguns dropped the wood stocks. I can’t give all the reasons, just the facts. Even the Sten I to the Sten II and beyond. It is what it is. It would be like complaining that our M4A1s don’t have wooden stocks, there is a reason.
The STEN returned to wooden stock in 1944 with the mkV.
Wooden stocks add extra work and resources and makes it take longer to get finished guns, thats why most countries decided after short period to go to stamped metal and folding stocks.. time and money saving
Don’t know. We are not talking of elaborate stocks , but of a roughly shaped plank, like that of the Volkssturmgewehr VG 1-5, that’s still more comfortable for the shooter than a wire stock.
A piece like that, made of the same wood used to make millions of ammo crates, would have been completely unexpensive.
Folding stock is another thing. It’s not time and money saving. Is needed to store the SMG in vehicles “if shit happens”. And that’s why it imposed itself after the war, since that became the main use of SMGs
Dear Dogwalker: I’m an Infantry combat vet that has been shooting subgun competitions for years. The folded loop stock on my Sten Mk II is way may comfortable and lighter than the wooden stocked Sten Mk V. When nations were in a life/death struggle, what did they pick? I get where you’re coming from. If you wish hard enough, the FBI and most other L.E. agencies will go back to S&W Modal 10s with wood grips. Poo on Glocks Dag Nabit! (Please see my joke here).
@ Harold Mark Littell
It’s not a question of wishing. There are reasons for every action, but not always the situation ends up to be what what was expected in advance.
Wire stocks use less resources, are of simpler construction, cheaper, and save time per gun produced? Are we sure? Or it’s only a made-up reason?
I don’t know. I’ve an idea of the time needed to stamp, cut and weld metal, and of the time needed to cut and sand wood, and they seems to be pretty much the same in this case. Infact the Germans decided to go for “plank stocks” when they were were in a life/death struggle.
In 1944 the Brits decided to revert a previous decision, and went to a wooden stock for the Sten, you like it or not. Maybe they observed that they had more wood available, and people able to work it, than they estimated before, and welders instead were better needed elsewhere. Maybe they liked the look of the wooden stock better in 1944. But that’s what happened. So, are we sure that wire stock were economically convenient?
What replaced wooden grips in pistols is polymer, not welded steel.
I prefer to discuss technical topics WITHOUT guessing what’s in the interlocutor’s head, inferring that his supposed preferences influence his judgment and making fun of them, but, if that’s the way you are more comfortable with, I can adapt.
Sorry Kari, this one goes out to Dogwalker. You completely missed my point. Why are you arguing decisions made 80 years ago? I could never figure out why they went with an inferior double column/single feed mag for the M3 “Grease Gun” when they had 40 million awesome Thompson mags? I have a design fix and if I find a parts kit, I’ll make it work, (Legally with all correct 7/2 paperwork of course!). I get the “press and fold” construction being that’s what GM Saginaw did. But look at the problems with welding sheet metal they ran into once production started. Why not a Sten-type tube? IDK, I wasn’t in charge. But that’s the point. Read “The Sten Machine Carbine.” Both the the loop and “T” style stocks took under a minute to make. That’s what they did. Was the “V” an improvement? I don’t think so. Sorry, I have both and enjoy shooting the “II” more. Just a personal preference, but everyone that has shot both says the same thing. The people that were in charge did what they did and either won or lost. All are now dead. If this bothers you so much, find Doc. Hop in the De Laurian, hit 88 mph, and let them all know what you think. I’m sure they’ll be fascinated. I’m bored and done.
“(…)why(…)inferior double column/single feed mag for the M3 “Grease Gun”(…)”
Observe that said fire-arm was designed as able to switch calibers between 9×19 and .45 Auto, when set to consuming first it used STEN magazines, see left half of 3rd image from top https://smallarmsreview.com/m3-greasegun-9mm-conversion-kit/
@ Harold Mark Littell
You completely missed my point. I’m not “arguing the decisions made 80 years ago”. A reason had been given for those decisions yesterday. Are we sure this reason mentioned yesterday is real? Had it been said the real reason the decision had been taken is because someone read it in the tarot cards, that would have been true? It’s not enough to say something now to make it real.
Let’s look at the available data. How many fixed stock SMGs had been mass-produced with a welded steel stock during WWII?
One (at least I don’t remember others at this moment, while I can think of many that had been manufactured with a wooden stock until the last day of war).
And it ended it’s wartime production with a wooden stock.
So, are we so sure that wire stocks use less resources, are of simpler construction, cheaper, and save time per gun produced? Or it’s only a made-up reason?
What you enjoy shooting, sorry, but doesn’t add anything to the abovementioned topic. AND, if it adds something, it’s to support the opinion contrary to your own. Let’s say, your preference is universal infact. Why change a more comfortable stock with a less comfortable one of about the same dimensions in wartime, if not to spare resources?
Finally, the only one that seem to be bothered here is you. I didn’t search for you infact. Quite the contrary. Try at least to differentiate a topic about economy of production from your need to jerk off on your favorite gun.
If you look at it, the folding stocks all really got going about the time that they chose to make the SMG the carbine/PDW weapon of choice; something to be carried more than actually fought with.
As such, it’s not surprising that they made compromises biased towards making the SMG more carry-friendly than combat-capable.
First: “Hi” to Mr. K, I’ve gotten two M.G.s from Morphy’s and a bunch of other NFA items. Looking at this from an Infantryman/Historian/Collector/Submachine Guns competitor point of view. I have to go with the Finn. It’s a hard choice though, I’ve shot a 38A and they are every bit as nice as they say. And as an aside, the Berretta BM12 is THE smoothest open bolt subgun I’ve ever shot. And I have a Sterling and a buddy of mine has a Karl G, so yes, I’ve shot the best of that group. But the Soumi has been a dream gun for over 20 years. It’s got the history beat. Only that…and a “little” something in 20mm would “Finish” my “Finnish” collection. Really, not a bad choice between them!
Having spent some time with actual Finns, I’m going to have to point out that the Suomi is designed around what the Finns wanted in their SMG, not what the Italians thought would be necessary. Two different use-cases, two different weapons with different characteristics.
Finns saw the SMG as a highly portable base-of-fire weapon that they could use in conjunction with light infantry in the forests of their southern regions. That’s why the Suomi is what it is; it’s an SMG optioned out and optimized to serve as an effective Squad Automatic Weapon.
To outsiders, the Finns are weird. To themselves, it’s just good common sense; they don’t worry about MG tripods, for example, because none of the fights they expect to be in will require that sort of ranged or sustained firepower.
I spent a couple of long nights talking to a Finnish exchange NCO about this; in the US, back when the majority of the combat arms senior NCOs were Vietnam veterans, the use of the tripod in the sort of dense forest jungle-type warfare was a huge thing; we did training on how you were supposed to set up during movements to take fire support positions and then record T&E numbers while marking where your tripod legs sat, so that you could fall in on the position during a withdrawal and lay down fire from it on pre-registered targets, even in the dark.
I described this to the Finn, and he just stared at me like I was mad; they had no concept of doing anything like that, and simply used the MG as a bipod-mounted source of support fire. From what he told me, they didn’t even issue tripods to their infantry for use like that… It’d stay on the truck until they set up a fixed defense somewhere, and that wasn’t anything they really planned on doing. Ever.
Different doctrine, different ways of fighting, different weapons. That’s why the Suomi is what it is, and the Finns made it work for them. Your mileage may vary, dependent upon situation and tactics… Not to mention, the vigor with which you implement them.
“(…)Suomi is what it is, and the Finns made it work for them(…)”
That being said it proved to be possible to flex for other user requirements, considering it was produced in Denmark https://www.forgottenweapons.com/danish-m1941-suomi-smg/ for their forces.
When I was a child, my family was stationed in Italy. The communists would demonstrate (riot) on Mayday. We lived off post and on Mayday, they would station MP’s and Carabinieri on the school bus. The Carabinieri would usually carry the wooden stocked Berretta SMG’s. Once when the demonstrators (rioters) blocked the bus. The Carabinieri got off the bus , told the guy to move and all but one did. He then butt stroked the guy in the head with the SMG and motioned for the others to drag him out of the way, which they did. He got back on the bus and told the driver “via subito” (go quickly. The Carabinieri believed in one riot and one Carabinieri. The heavy wooden stock was useful in other ways than simply shooting.
One of my guys spent the majority of his career in Italy, at Vicenza. Married a nice Italian girl, whose dad wound up going from mid-level Carabinieri to something at the level of Colonel or Brigadier General.
So, he had a view from both sides of the buttstock; on the one hand, his troops there in Vicenza kept on getting in troubles that came to the attention of the Carabinieri, and his father-in-law was constantly bitching about what the damn Americans were up to.
Both sides of the coin agreed that there was no such thing as “police brutality” in the conception of the Carabinieri. Period. If you wound up hospitalized because you lipped off at one, too bad, too sad… Your own damn fault.
Or, so it used to go. I don’t know if those rules are still around… I know the Polizei in Germany are no longer what they were in my misspent youth.
The British did a study of their WWII small arms, which I’ve gotten a copy of from the War Office: WO 291/476 Comparison of rifle, Bren and Sten.
The Sten, fired as a self-loader and in short controlled bursts performed surprisingly well within how the study was structured and the nature of the tests. The conclusions drawn were that a bayonet should be developed for the Sten–I found this to be über-British, frankly–and that a wood stock would improve its handling. I have seen Sten Mk.IIs with experimental wood stocks, which may or may not have been created in relation to the tests. Certainly, as some posters have noted, wood stock furniture was added to the Mk.V, even though it was intended for air-mobile glider and paratroops. With any Sten, of course, the stock can simply be removed and carried separately
As far as wood stocks go, the Japanese Arisaka used a spliced butt stock to make more efficient use of wood resources. I know that the experimental British WWII rifle that was prototyped at about the same time as the BESAL machine gun scheme used a skeleton wood and steel stock that strongly resembled that of the Clyde-side Singer sewing machine factory-produced Sten Mk.I and Mk.I*. The UK was actually concerned with wood used for weapons production. The prototype rifle was a bit like a British MAS Mle. 1936: It had a slab-sided metal receiver with a two-piece wooden stock. It had an integral bayonet. It had a five-round internal magazine replenished with stripper-clips/chargers or loose cartridges. It had aperture sights. The actual action, however, appeared to hew to the U.S.-produced Pattern 14 modified Mauser action.
When you visit the Springfield Arsenal NHS in Massachusetts, you can see a water-wheel-powered stock shaping machine from the 19th C. It follows a model stock to automatically whittle away the excess wood and shape the stock such that a human wood worker has to do comparatively little inleting and so on to finish the product. In addition to the rudimentary, unfinished wood stocks used by Germany for the last-ditch Volksgewehre, both Germany and the USSR were using laminates of various kinds.
The MP-36 and MP-40 had Teutonic retro-futurism going for them: a folding stock for the propaganda Fallschirmjäger and the “air mobility” point addressed by @eon, and was one of the first, if not the first, firearm to use so much plastic as it did. If that’s what “high tech” looked like after Fall Gelb and Fall Rot, then other nations gun designers would follow suit, no?
Some wooden stocked Sten prototype, even one with the bayonet, can be seen here http://firearms.96.lt/pages/Experimental%20STENs.html
It’s evident both three would have been pretty expensive, in respect, IE to the simple “plank” stock of the Gnome et Rhône R5.
I need to see the Finn chick’s ankles and her mom to see what’s going to happen.
I know about the Italian girls, although the ones in Italy don’t let themselves go like America. Tall is often better but the heavier girls might have a bit more recoil.
I was going to ask about logistics, but that’s no fun…so let’s talk about what’s fun.